“Yeshiva bochur” was a pejorative term weighted w. derision.

amother

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 6:14 pm

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......html

Quote:

“Yeshiva bochur” was a pejorative term weighted with derision and scorn.

Unfortunately the pendulum has swung so to the opposite direction that now anyone who is not a "Yeshiva bochur” into their high twenties is looked at pejoratively as an object of pity, derision and scorn.

Ruchel

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 6:22 pm

I BH have never seen it used pejoratively, or encountered people who say you have to be in yeshiva into your high twenties... unless you go into rabbinical school, the rabbanim advise to study 1 or 2 years in a yeshiva and then go to university to have a decent parnasa... they do encourage yeshiva though, while sem it really depends on the girl and the sem. My parents' rav told me to do a master instead of interrupting after my ba to go to sem.

All extremes are bad.

amother

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 8:48 am

Full time learning, long after marriage, which exists in great numbers today, would be wonderful if the vast majority were able to be self sufficient, by being supported by their Kollelim, or Yisachar Zevulun partnerships, rather than dependent on parents, in laws and other sources I can’t mention here, causing much difficulty in other areas in the Frumme Velt, such as the Shidduch crisis. Due to the quantity of learners, this is not a reality.

Those that don't want or are not suited to a future in Chinuch, might better serve the community as supporters of Torah, by working, rather than by being Kollel people, long after marriage.

Mevater

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 9:03 am

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

All extremes are bad.

Extremes which are far more extreme than what you are talking about produce gedolim b'Yisrael.

It would be insane to dissuade F/T learners that show big Kishronos in learning and potential for becoming Gedolim B'Yisroel. Just the opposite! Those are the ones that would be deserving of full Kollel support and /or Yisachar Zevulun partnerships.

The fact that in this day and age, those that don't wish to stay in or are not suited for Chinuch are the overwhelming majority of those in Kollel, makes it harder for those that are truly deserving of F/T support, to get it.

creativemommyto3

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 9:10 am

I think that it should be only the ones that are really into learning that get the support. The others should either be in part time or only go to night seder after coming home from work and give support to the full time ones. I think that kollel has become a fad and sometimes it is hard to tell who is sincere and who is just doing it b/c that's what everybody else does. how in the world is everybody supposed to support kollel learners if most ppl are in kollel? That leaves nobody to support them. correct me if I am wrong since I am all for men learning in kollel. Very Happy

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 3:43 pm

letsbehonest wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

All extremes are bad.

Extremes which are far more extreme than what you are talking about produce gedolim b'Yisrael.

In the "good" days only a small % of men were in kollel full time and didn't work. Only those who really contributed... but nowadays........

shoshb

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 3:49 pm

Quote:

Extremes which are far more extreme than what you are talking about produce gedolim b'Yisrael.

EXACTLY!!!! That's extremes producing extremes!!!!
Nobody argues that the EXTREMELY exceptional learners with EXTREME Yiras SHamayim, and OUTSTANDING middos be supported in their learning by the community.
The question is, how is the community to support the AVERAGE guys, and even the sub-par guys sitting in Kollel forever?

Atali

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 6:29 am

Quote:

In the "good" days only a small % of men were in kollel full time and didn't work. Only those who really contributed... but nowadays........

Actually, anyone who learns Torah is contributing to the world, even if they are only learning alef-bais, all the more so if they are learning on the level of even the weaker kollel yungeliet. Limud HaTorah is an end in itself

On the other hand, the Torah community in our times is unfortunately not wealthy enough to support so many full time kollel students.

So here is my take on the situation.

1. Since Limud haTorah is vitally important to the world, since the world stands on Torah study, men who are seriously interested in learning should learn in kollel for a year or two after marriage in order to start their marriage on the right footing, whether or not they are great talmidei chochomim or teachers, assuming that it is financially feasable (either through a kollel stipend, the wife working, or parental support).

2. After that those that do not have enough independant income (I.e. from a wife who is able and willing to work) and are not great talmidei chochomim should earn a parnassa, while those who are talmidei chochomim should be supported by the community.

3. Kollel life is supposed to call for mesiras nefesh (for the couple, not their parents) and therefore parents should only be expected to support the couple is they are extremely wealthy.[/b]

amother

Sun, Aug 19 2007, 6:49 am

dh came home today and says he thinks his rosh collel is discouraging some of the really bright guys so they will want to prove that they are indeed sincere...

The situation has become such that reverse psychology is needed to"weed them out" or has it always been this way?