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Re the other shooting thread
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:44 pm
I'm opening a new thread because I want to ask anonymously. And because I'm asking seriously. The other thread just seemed to have gone in circles.

My question is why do they resort to violence if they want to protest all the extra 'negative attention' from police? Doesn't it prove exactly the opposite, that the police is right in being extra careful around blacks?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:46 pm
amother wrote:
I'm opening a new thread because I want to ask anonymously. And because I'm asking seriously. The other thread just seemed to have gone in circles.

My question is why do they resort to violence if they want to protest all the extra 'negative attention' from police? Doesn't it prove exactly the opposite, that the police is right in being extra careful around blacks?

"They" didn't resort to violence. A few individuals resorted to violence while the rest of "them," in great numbers, demonstrated peacefully.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:54 pm
First, who is they? Second, what violence are you referring to exactly?
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:17 pm
There could be a thousand peaceful vigils going on throughout the country, but only the Baltimore Riots will get national attention.

Were the riots the universal black response to the death of Freddie Gray? Not at all, but it certainly did its part to enforce the prejudices against the AA community.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:33 pm
This is probably pointless to explain here, but there are members of the black community who feel that large scale disruption and revolution is the reasonable next step. As a white woman, I don't know what it's like to face discrimination each and every day. I don't know what it's like, really, to have a family and cultural history stolen from me and then to be told at each step that I am not wanted, don't belong, am less than.

Even Jews that lived through the Holocaust did not lose the ties to their language, religion, culture and family the way that African slaves did. It's hard to imagine that much cultural destruction and it's shameful how quickly, we, who should know better, can dismiss or ignore those effects.

Jews have the fight for Israel, which has hardly been bloodless, no matter how you look at it. Black people look at the power structure in America, the institutionalized racism, the segregation, the lack of anything resembling a level playing field, the fact that they have no real ties to any place in this world now, and see violent struggle and revolution for freedom as their only option. They see that no matter how pacifist and "perfect" their leaders and marches are, their struggle for justice and liberty will never be truly accepted by the white majority, and that maybe stronger measures are needed.

Those of you who think Black people should always be peaceful, never violent, never use force, don't hold Israel to that same standard because you understand that sometimes it's not possible.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:40 pm
I don't pretend to be an expert nor take a solid stance in this issue. I just don't see it difficult to understand how people will believe what is reported (using your example, just like some papers will only publish violence against Palestinians and even twist terror attacks against Israelis to suit Palestinian sympathy).

Just had to add:

Quote:
Those of you who think Black people should always be peaceful, never violent, never use force, don't hold Israel to that same standard because you understand that sometimes it's not possible.


There is a world of a difference in violence used in self- defense against an attacker and violence simply to make a statement.


Last edited by tigerwife on Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:48 pm
I'm a caucasian and I've been involved in my communities BLM since it's inception. I feel that within the frum community and America at large the only recognition given to the BLM movement is when demonstrations hit the headlines. Factually each community BLM is involved on many different levels. Some people are working for police reforms, others are involved in the public school systems engaging students and community on a much larger discussion of racism. Others engage institutions, such as employers and businesses to work together to find a means to ending institutional racism.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:54 pm
amother wrote:
I'm a caucasian and I've been involved in my communities BLM since it's inception. I feel that within the frum community and America at large the only recognition given to the BLM movement is when demonstrations hit the headlines. Factually each community BLM is involved on many different levels. Some people are working for police reforms, others are involved in the public school systems engaging students and community on a much larger discussion of racism. Others engage institutions, such as employers and businesses to work together to find a means to ending institutional racism.


Please post this on the other thread in response to bas melech saying that BLM has not done anything productive to help stop systemic racism.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:59 pm
tigerwife wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert nor take a solid stance in this issue. I just don't see it difficult to understand how people will believe what is reported (using your example, just like some papers will only publish violence against Palestinians and even twist terror attacks against Israelis to suit Palestinian sympathy).

Just had to add:

Quote:
Those of you who think Black people should always be peaceful, never violent, never use force, don't hold Israel to that same standard because you understand that sometimes it's not possible.


There is a world of a difference in violence used in self- defense against an attacker and violence simply to make a statement.


But that is my point. For a section of the Black community, this IS about self defence. This is about feeling like a million peaceful marches will never stop their young men being shot in the streets, the segregation, the fear, the discrimination.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 12:00 am
fmt4 wrote:
Please post this on the other thread in response to bas melech saying that BLM has not done anything productive to help stop systemic racism.


Feel free to copy and paste my post over there, since anonymous posting is not an option. I've avoided that thread due to the racists posts.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 12:18 am
petiteruchy wrote:
But that is my point. For a section of the Black community, this IS about self defence. This is about feeling like a million peaceful marches will never stop their young men being shot in the streets, the segregation, the fear, the discrimination.


I really don't like debating.

But as far as I understand, the Dallas sniper has not gained recognition as a hero by anyone. Most Americans regardless of race are horrified by his attack. He was part of a very small extremist Facebook group that promotes 'killing white people' (IIRC there were around 170 members, which might still be a large number of violent people but is a minuscule representation of African Americans). I haven't seen anyone agree that this is a positive tactical step. His violence has only accomplished deepening the fear of 'black violence'.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 12:28 am
I wasn't really talking about him. Amother wanted to know about violence, I assumed she was talking about protests or marches that have a less "peaceful" atmosphere. I was just pointing out that for some people, they feel strong measures are justified at this point, and frankly, if they decided as a community that it was necessary, I'd have to believe them. It's not my sons and daughters paying the price, so it's not my place to pass judgement on tactics.

If the amother will come back and clarify what her question is exactly, it'll be easier to address.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 12:31 am
Not sure why I'm posting again on this issue but I guess it bothers me.

You drew the parallel between these cases and Israel. The only valid parallel I can think of is the murder of a Palestinian teen in response to the kidnapping and subsequent murders of our three teens. The vast majority of Israel and Jews worldwide renounced this act of violence (once again, can't deny there was a tiny segment who thought it was correct). At the same time, it was used as a prime example of Israeli persecution of Palestinians.

Violent protest doesn't work.

ETA: cross-posted. I don't think that you, petiteruchy, personally think that violence is justified. But this cycle of violence really bothers me. I think the OP's point on the other thread is in her title, but the rest of it just evolves into circular debate.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 3:06 am
tigerwife wrote:
There could be a thousand peaceful vigils going on throughout the country, but only the Baltimore Riots will get national attention.

Were the riots the universal black response to the death of Freddie Gray? Not at all, but it certainly did its part to enforce the prejudices against the AA community.

Were there thousands of peaceful protests?
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PAMOM




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 3:24 am
Turquoise, fmt4, petiteruchy, your postings are helping relieve my distress at some of the racism on the other thread. My heart breaks for the Black Imamothers who thought they were part of the "us."
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 3:39 am
petiteruchy wrote:
I wasn't really talking about him. Amother wanted to know about violence, I assumed she was talking about protests or marches that have a less "peaceful" atmosphere. I was just pointing out that for some people, they feel strong measures are justified at this point, and frankly, if they decided as a community that it was necessary, I'd have to believe them. It's not my sons and daughters paying the price, so it's not my place to pass judgement on tactics.

If the amother will come back and clarify what her question is exactly, it'll be easier to address.



I find the bolded statement and your analogy to Israel very disturbing.
These arguments are the exact justifications of those who would like to call terrorism and incitement to"resistance".
On the other side, it is also one of the arguments used to explain the increased number of "price tag" attacks.

I think we as a society are perfectly justified in condemning terror, incitement, violence and destruction of property. And I do not think that such tactics are conducive to peace, equality or whatever else anyone is looking for.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:08 am
tigerwife wrote:

But as far as I understand, the Dallas sniper has not gained recognition as a hero by anyone.


Search the Twitter hashtag #F*ckThePolice (but spell the F word properly). Prepare to be disillusioned and disgusted.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:54 am
Do you think the Palestinians would get as much worldwide media sympathy and attention if they were peaceful and non violent? Unfortunately, I'm not sure that they would. So, violence does sometimes work to attract peoples attention to an issue. "Wow, these, people are so angry, they must be so upset - what are they upset about?"

The disagreement between peaceful protest and violent protest is old. MLK advocated peaceful protest, others violent protest. MLK used other non violent methods such as strikes and sit ins and Rosa Parks - but what similar methods can be used to against police profiling?
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:56 am
amother wrote:
Feel free to copy and paste my post over there, since anonymous posting is not an option. I've avoided that thread due to the racists posts.

Seeing that this thread is amother enabled, its about to get racist as heck. Just sayin.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2016, 8:53 am
petiteruchy wrote:

Those of you who think Black people should always be peaceful, never violent, never use force, don't hold Israel to that same standard because you understand that sometimes it's not possible.


Scratching Head
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