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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
amother
Navy
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:29 pm
So it seems like threads venting about the unpleasantries of frum life are discouraged here - which is fine, since the goal is to keep this a "frum" site that isn't encouraging women To go OTD. But are there any sites out there where we CAN discuss this stuff openly?
I have a lot to say about Orthodox life as I've experienced it so far and I feel like I can't discuss it here.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:36 pm
I think Jew in the City may have discussions like that.
I've been in your place too...
I've learned to separate my own religion/beliefs from the frum culture of today - which is built on a lot of things that often have nothing to do with Judaism.
I went back to the basics, and learned a lot about Jewish philosophy and thought. From the Rambam to Rebbe Nachman - from many varied sources.
Got out of my community to one that resonated more with me.
Even though things definitely still bother me, I've built an inner world and internal connection with G-d that does not depend on the behavior/attitudes/norms of others.
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amother
Scarlet
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:46 pm
I would urge Yael to reconsider allowing this discussion here. Because I saw the fact that you wanted to discuss it all with orthodox people a good sign that you really want to be convinced to stay, not leave. Because if you really wanted to leave, you would be discussing with secular people.
Please don't be turned off by the fact that your other thread was locked. Yael means well. She is probably scared by a thread like that. Scared that a Jew may be planning to leave the fold. I'm also scared, but my reaction is different.
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amother
Beige
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:55 pm
amother wrote: | So it seems like threads venting about the unpleasantries of frum life are discouraged here - which is fine, since the goal is to keep this a "frum" site that isn't encouraging women To go OTD. But are there any sites out there where we CAN discuss this stuff openly?
I have a lot to say about Orthodox life as I've experienced it so far and I feel like I can't discuss it here. |
The status quo is alive an well on Ima. There are a number of sites online that could lead you to more open minded groups. Do some googling and research and see if you can find one that appeals to you.
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amother
Navy
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 9:16 pm
amother wrote: | I would urge Yael to reconsider allowing this discussion here. Because I saw the fact that you wanted to discuss it all with orthodox people a good sign that you really want to be convinced to stay, not leave. Because if you really wanted to leave, you would be discussing with secular people.
Please don't be turned off by the fact that your other thread was locked. Yael means well. She is probably scared by a thread like that. Scared that a Jew may be planning to leave the fold. I'm also scared, but my reaction is different. |
That wasn't me who started the thread that was locked down, but I related to it and tried to respond.
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tigerwife
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Mon, Jul 11 2016, 9:31 pm
I can't speak for Yael, but if I created a site for Orthodox Jewish women and stated numerous times in both site rules and individual posts that posts that are antitheticical to the Torah will not be tolerated, then I would be pretty dismayed to see a thread topic asking for support in leaving Judaism.
I'm not sure how this has anything to do with fear. People who are opposed to leaving Judaism should feel this way because they are sure that it is the correct path of life, not because they are afraid of change.
If the poster would be asking for help in her struggle to see any beauty or meaning in Judaism, that would be a different story.
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5mom
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 2:30 am
The question is, do you want to be gruntled? Are you looking to leave, or do you want a way to find a religious path that meets your needs?
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amother
Scarlet
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 2:44 am
Tigerwife and others I do understand that you want an orthodox site to be orthodox. But when I went through a period of not being sure if I would commit to orthodoxy, I probably drove all my frrum friends mad by carrying on about every thing the was wrong with Torah. But I was talking to then davka because I knew I child never convince them, and I was hoping that they would convince me. In the end, they did. But through kindness and engagement, not by telling ne I child not discuss these things . So I agree with the poster who said it really depends if you eat to be "gruntled' or not. I prefer to be DLKZ that a person who is asking these questions davka of a fruum crowd really wants to be convinced that their view is wrong.
Once they start discussing these issues with non-orthodox, they have already begun to leave. I say engage, so as to stop them leaving .
But having said that, this is Yael's site, and she makes the rules, and we are lucky to be here, and I accept her decision.
But to my mind, the question on this thread is way more troubling than the question on the other thread.
ETA I just went back and reread the op from the other thread. Add I guess I just read between the lines, because no one would seriously post that expecting a serious answer? I read it as"I'm fed up so many things are so difficult for me in the Judaism I grew up with. Please help me. ". But I agree. That's not what was actually written. But sometimes it's important to find out what a person is really trying to ask.
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Maya
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 7:41 am
amother wrote: | I think Jew in the City may have discussions like that.
. |
I think Jew in the City would also shut down conversation like that, at least to a certain degree, since her goal is to show how beautiful frum life is, not the opposite.
There's more allowance for such talk at Project Makom, whether on Facebook or at their meetings.
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Petra
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 11:02 am
The thing is, once a person is OTD, they don't usually become Reform or Conservative or whatever, they are "non-practicing" Orthodox Jews usually and there is a chance they could come back.
Everyone is on a journey. Some people own up to that journey and do a healthy introspection often and others deny the journey for the interest of status quo and fear of the unknown and other side.
I would appreciate a category for "questioning minds" myself. I often have questions and concerns and changing interests.
It could be helpful to some. I don't think it is too common that one is pushed OTD solely because of an internet forum such as this.
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Mrs Bissli
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 4:09 pm
I also agree there should be a safe heaven forum to discuss disgruntled frummies. After all, there is a forum for OTD teens+ within imamothers. That doesn't mean we're encouraging teen children to go OTD, so I see it is a double standard here.
To be really honest, I've been rather unhappy, really really bothered lately by how criticising how our religion is interpreted/practised (including religious leadership's action/inaction) seem to be discouraged to the point of self-censorship and irrational, knee-jerk reactions. We are not Lemmings, G-d gave each of us mental capacity to think for ourselves (and hopefully choose the right path He/she had intended for us).
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tichellady
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 4:21 pm
Mrs Bissli wrote: | I also agree there should be a safe heaven forum to discuss disgruntled frummies. After all, there is a forum for OTD teens+ within imamothers. That doesn't mean we're encouraging teen children to go OTD, so I see it is a double standard here.
To be really honest, I've been rather unhappy, really really bothered lately by how criticising how our religion is interpreted/practised (including religious leadership's action/inaction) seem to be discouraged to the point of self-censorship and irrational, knee-jerk reactions. We are not Lemmings, G-d gave each of us mental capacity to think for ourselves (and hopefully choose the right path He/she had intended for us). |
Totally agree!
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tigerwife
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 4:32 pm
Asking questions should not be discouraged at all.
I don't remember the OP of the other thread anymore, but I think was was something like:
"I'm done with Judaism and would like to leave. Has anyone done this before?" Should an orthodox site support and encourage members to leave Orthodox Judaism?
Could be I'm wrong and I don't remember. But it would be a different case if the OP complained about something about Judaism that would spark an informative discussion. There have been threads like that in the past and while you'll always find very negative comments, there will be plenty of helpful ones as well.
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shooting star
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 4:34 pm
I'm both happy and disgruntled.
Happy to be a Jew and live a Torah life of serving G-d. Disgruntled by the way the Torah is being viewed/applied in order to keep a status quo instead of seek G-d's Truth.
So long as the thread is for the purpose of finding the best path within the Torah, I don't see what's wrong with being disgruntled or upset about our current challenges being "frum" and what we are supposed to conform to even though the Torah shows otherwise.
Like it or not, most leaders of this generation are blind. No matter how well meaning you are, you can't drive well if you can't see!
Don't get me started lol.
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tf
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Tue, Jul 12 2016, 5:56 pm
I totally agree that there are frum people taking advantage of systems and of well behaved good ones, but this does not mean that the Torah or Judaism in general is the fault. We all need guidelines and rules for living, but nobody needs or can tolerate when so called bosses use Torah or Judaism as a means to overpower others in any way. Being disgruntled is most likely against overpowering people who use Torah or Judaism as their weapon. This absolutely needs to be fought just like any other corrupt system.
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:):):):):)
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Fri, Jul 22 2016, 4:26 pm
Don't judge judaism by the jews judge it by the Torah
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greenfire
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Fri, Jul 22 2016, 4:39 pm
Maya wrote: | Are you kidding? |
they must be related
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