Feeling cheated | Imamother

amother

Orange

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 10:34 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm really surprised by this, since by their verbal agreement they caused her a monetary loss (attorney fees, inspector, etc...)

No one is throwing aside halacha. It is a question of jurisdiction.

In a situation where the parties are operating under secular law, and the rules are clear that you may lose money, you can't turn around and claim that you want the transaction to be governed only by halacha.

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 11:11 am

People are saying that I should have signed a contract before bringing in an inspector but that's not how it works in this area. We looked at several houses and had to back out after inspection because of things that came up in the report and the sellers weren't willing to negotiate. That's why this time I requested that our attorneys get involved early on to know that they are serious about selling. Your telling me that just because I waited a week for the inspector- he's very good so it was worth the wait, they are allowed to go and sell the house to someone else? I feel played. I have lost money and sleep over this. And they're attitude is were so sorry these things happen but we'll pay toward the inspection! As if they owe us nothing!
My Rav spoke to theirs and said according to secular law and Halacha we have no case against them. But he also said as a matter of decency and frumkeit they should be paying us for agmas Nefesh- same as in shidduchim. They're Rav said they'd be willing to pay a small amount. We offered to write them a letter of mechila if they compensate us financially. They came back that they'd "stick to thier word" and reimburse part of the inspector fee - cuz they say our inspector cost more than the ones they've used, and nothing for the attorney cuz it was our idea to get one involved so early on! As if they know about sticking to thier word. I called the woman and told her she's crazy. There are stories about people who don't reimburse or go back on thier word. They need to take thier actions more seriously.

amother

Orange

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 11:22 am

amother wrote:

Thank you chayalla and new mom for sticking up for me. What does jurisdiction of secular law have to do with a frum household!

When frum people are signing a contract according to secular law, that's the law that governs the contract - according to halacha.

We sold a house, and buyers are allowed 72 hours after signing to back out. Our buyers backed out 71 hours and 45 minutes after signing. Eventually we sold the house, but for 30k less. Was it annoying? Sure. But they were within their rights. And so I'm sympathetic to your situation. What is not sympathetic is your belief that you should not suffer any agmas nefesh. You called the woman to tell her she's crazy?!?? No words.

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 11:30 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm really surprised by this, since by their verbal agreement they caused her a monetary loss (attorney fees, inspector, etc...)

I don't claim to know halacha, but maybe the reason her rav told her there's no case here even though there was a verbal agreement which logically should count for something, is because there is a firm precedent and it's common knowledge that the buyer and seller will continue to keep their options open until the contract is signed. It's a frustrating but accepted part of the process.

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 12:00 pm

Maybe that is the case - Dina D'malchusah Dina, and if it's common practice to do this, then perhaps that becomes the Halacha. Certainly if I was in that position I'd probably ask my LOR. I was raised with the concept that as frum Jews we are expected to behave the right way even if common practice is otherwise. So many times we were told stories of those who kept the original amount of a deal based even on a thought, let alone giving your word.

But OP, I was also taught to always strive to do things peacefully, making a Kiddush Hashem. At the end of the day, the Torah also tells us not to hold a grudge. Calling them crazy when they did try, according to their understanding (whether they are right or wrong) to offer something is really not the way to go.

From my perspective, I wouldn't want to act in a way that someone would have something against me. But I wouldn't want to have something against someone else either, because that's even more scary. When I stand before Hashem, I want to say please judge me favorably, as I try to judge others Lkaf Zchus too.

This has been painful for you OP, but as others have said, you need to work on letting go here or you stand to lose out the most.....

sky

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

I will tell you how this is different than a shtar mechila when a couple breaks up (whatever that is): this is business; not a relationship. And whether they owe you anything is determined by straight up halacha, not your feelings. Your rav says they don't owe you anything. What is your issue beyond what halacha says they must do? Everyone feels bad for you but pretty much no one thinks they have a legal or halachic obligation to repay your costs. Are you trying to say your rav is wrong??

When a couple has tanaim its hard to break because its a business deal. From what I've learned giving an agreement to a business deal and then backing out, even verbally is not a proper thing to do.
It doesn't apply here according to the rav, but I was always told to be careful about giving a verbal agreement and backing out.

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 1:09 pm

sky wrote:

Exactly. They may not be obligated to compensate, but it doesn't make what they did right.

WhatFor

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 2:04 pm

OP - you said that you had looked at several houses and backed out after inspection prior to this incident. I'm sure you know that you were well within your rights to do so. But do you think it's fair that this seller would then have to place a hold on her house to see whether you want to take it?
Given your prior experience, you must have been familiar with this process and known that there was no firm contract in place yet.

rae

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 2:23 pm

I'm going to reiterate what others said. Let's say you backed out after inspection or subjected them to bargaining over price for fixing things inspector said was not 100%. Would you owe them the money they lost while putting their house on hold? If they would've turned down the higher offer because of your verbal agreement and you would've came back saying I'm offering $5,000 less because my top inspecter said the roof is not good, would that be fair if you? Selling a house is stressful on both ends and the seller prob needs the money for their new home just like you do. Until a contract is final there is no guarantee. Agreeing to pay for partial inspection is extremely generous and yashrus of them
That being said, when we sold our home we went with the buyers who we felt were going to be easiest and pleasant to deal with. When you walk into your verbal agreements next time, try to establish a pleasant relationship. It might help you next time.

tigerwife

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

What exactly do they owe? They are paying towards your inspector, which is more than they are legally mandated to do.

Just let it go.

As a side point, am I understanding that people will pay an ex-fiancé compensation for breaking the Shidduch?

allthingsblue

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 3:00 pm

I'm sorry but the fact that you called the woman and told her she's crazy is very telling about.... You!
Whether or not they are right or wrong has nothing to do with you.
If you hold a grudge against them, why are you so certain they will suffer? Perhaps YOU will suffer because Hashem will see that you are unwilling to let go of things.
If they are not halachically obligated to compensate you, that's it. End of story. Your insistence that they pay is your problem, not theirs.
You wanted to wait for that really good inspector... Your fault, your loss.
You are not thinking rationally at the moment- you are too upset.

MamaBear

Fri, Jul 15 2016, 3:29 pm

Where I live, you never do an inspection til you are under contract. Your situation would be entirely your own fault in many places.

Furthermore, you said you have backed out from "several houses" (!!) while under contract because the seller wouldn't do the repairs you wanted. Perhaps in this situation, the seller heard that you are difficult and suspected you would back out later - and then decided to go with a different offer.

Quick question: do you have a real estate agent? It sounds like you don't. Getting one should be your next step.

Last edited by MamaBear on Fri, Jul 15 2016, 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Jul 17 2016, 12:03 am

So...let's get this straight. OP was told by her rav that the sellers do not owe her anything according to halacha, sellers went above and beyond their halachic duty and agreed to pay something anyway, OP is not happy with this despite it being lefnim mishuras hadin, and then snidely hints that Hashem will punish those sellers for the agmas nefesh they are causing her.

OP = the rav ruled the halacha is not in your favor! Yet they are paying you something anyway! Why do you think "Hashem" will "punish" them on your behalf??? Maybe Hashem will "punish" you for causing HER agmas nefesh when she acted within halachic and legal norms?

You made the right decision to get a rav involved. He paskened. Now let it go. Hatzlacha.