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Forum -> Parenting our children
VENT. Why don't parents take care of their children?
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 4:02 pm
Groisamama hit it on the nail. That is exactly what I meant. A lot of people wanted to know why calling Cps was wrong.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 4:07 pm
groisamomma wrote:
BTW I have no idea where the taxi argument comes in here...just because the safety of children is compromised in a taxi means that we can be lenient in our own cars? "Oops, sorry Officer Ploni, I thought since others put their kids in danger I can, too." Somehow I don't see that going over too well.

Of course not. But we're talking about whether something rises to the level of child endangerment such that CPS should be called. If legally it is not considered child endangerment to have unrestrained children in a taxi then I don't see how you can consider unrestrained children in a private car child endangerment to the degree that CPS should be called. Obviously one should intervene in other ways for the safety of the children but calling CPS is overkill.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:34 pm
sky wrote:
Personally I think its a parent's right to make those decisions.
Its gov. over stepping its bounds to tell parent's how to parent within the law.
Its a dangerous slope for the gov to be allowed to tell you how to parent.

I have no problem letting my 10 year old walk to a local park alone (typically he goes with a group of friends and not alone, but they are all around the same age).
do you really think I should have CPS showing up at my door for that?

Please don't tell me its more dangerous now than it used to be - if you look at crime rates against kids its actually better. You just hear about it more.


It was a 10 year old and a 6 year old, which is very different than a few 10 year olds. And against Maryland law, since the six year old can not be supervised by the ten year old according to the law.

And they were dropped off so 4 and told to be home by six
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groisamomma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:36 pm
amother wrote:
Of course not. But we're talking about whether something rises to the level of child endangerment such that CPS should be called. If legally it is not considered child endangerment to have unrestrained children in a taxi then I don't see how you can consider unrestrained children in a private car child endangerment to the degree that CPS should be called. Obviously one should intervene in other ways for the safety of the children but calling CPS is overkill.


Is it really true that kids are allowed to drive unrestrained in a taxi legally? I know everyone does it but is it really legal?
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:36 pm
LittleDucky wrote:
While I don't work at CPS itself I do know many who work there and I have worked with them IRL. Should have gone Anon for this but I have worked at places where CPS was called on the clients. I know what they do. Trust me- I am not naive in the least.
They do take some kids out of the home, but unless there were clear and present dangers to the kids, they usually give psychoeducation, services, therapy etc and work to try to keep the kids at home.

Yes, sometimes there are clear cases of overreach but would you rather the kids be permanently injured/CV dead or make the parents FOLLOW BASIC common sense and safety practices? Get classes, help and support? I am not a fan of CPS (I could go on rants but it's Off topic) but they are there for a reason.

And I know cases where they were falsely accused and the case was closed, nothing happened and no mandatory classes even. (X spouse complained over nonsense...). If there is a lack of evidence, there is a lack of evidence.

I had to stop reading after this post to comment. This is just not true. Maybe that's the way it should be, but they regularly remove children even without signs of clear and present danger. My husband has a friend who needed to quit his job for a year because his wife put the baby outside in the stroller under a tree to rest (she came out often to check) and a neighbors WORKER called and said she was neglecting the baby. They removed the baby immediately. BH baby was returned a few hours later, but he wife wasn't allowed to be alone with the kids (baby or older kids)
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:47 pm
amother wrote:
I had to stop reading after this post to comment. This is just not true. Maybe that's the way it should be, but they regularly remove children even without signs of clear and present danger. My husband has a friend who needed to quit his job for a year because his wife put the baby outside in the stroller under a tree to rest (she came out often to check) and a neighbors WORKER called and said she was neglecting the baby. They removed the baby immediately. BH baby was returned a few hours later, but he wife wasn't allowed to be alone with the kids (baby or older kids)
the woman did neglect her baby.
Was this your attempt of giving an example of cps calling being overkill or are you giving an example of a clear case of neglect.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:49 pm
amother wrote:
I had to stop reading after this post to comment. This is just not true. Maybe that's the way it should be, but they regularly remove children even without signs of clear and present danger. My husband has a friend who needed to quit his job for a year because his wife put the baby outside in the stroller under a tree to rest (she came out often to check) and a neighbors WORKER called and said she was neglecting the baby. They removed the baby immediately. BH baby was returned a few hours later, but he wife wasn't allowed to be alone with the kids (baby or older kids)


My question is directed to the bold, for how long?

As to the child being removed for a few hours, why not? Most adults recognize the inherent dangers of leaving a child/baby/infant unattended in public.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:50 pm
I really hope some of you are not my neighbors. I would be really scared😁
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ChutzPAh




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:51 pm
Babies do not belong outside alone resting under trees, even if you 'check on them'.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:51 pm
amother wrote:
the woman did neglect her baby.
Was this your attempt of giving an example of cps calling being overkill or are you giving an example of a clear case of neglect.


Recently there was a case in London where a woman left her baby outside to play and "checked in often".

The baby was eaten by foxes. Sad Foxes are usually afraid of people, but the baby must have seemed like prey to them. It was the time of year when there are a lot of kits in the den to feed.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:52 pm
amother wrote:
I had to stop reading after this post to comment. This is just not true. Maybe that's the way it should be, but they regularly remove children even without signs of clear and present danger. My husband has a friend who needed to quit his job for a year because his wife put the baby outside in the stroller under a tree to rest (she came out often to check) and a neighbors WORKER called and said she was neglecting the baby. They removed the baby immediately. BH baby was returned a few hours later, but he wife wasn't allowed to be alone with the kids (baby or older kids)


Of course they removed the baby immediately, as any responsible agency with that authority should do, until they could ascertain whether this reckless, dangerous behavior extended to other areas as well and if the children would be safe with her.

There were "signs of clear and present danger".

The baby could have been kidnapped, killed or his carriage could have rolled into the street. 'Coming out often to check'? Anything could have happened to the child in between!

This was a very appropriate response to the situation. Had they simply dismissed it and said 'don't do it again', like you probably think they should have done, now THAT would have been disturbing.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:54 pm
flowerpower wrote:
I really hope some of you are not my neighbors. I would be really scared😁


Why would you be scared? Do you leave your baby outside by himself? Do you think this behavior is normal and doesn't warrant some investigation to see what other basic safety measures are not in place?
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amother
Olive


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:55 pm
1) All of you people who are really quick to call CPS; do you really know that is safer?

I have a parent who was taken out of the home (which was, in fact, extremely physically abusive) and spent a few years in foster care. If you think that foster care is a good place for a child, you don't know very much about the foster care system. And I have known people more recently in the foster care system (and anyone who cares to can read the statistics) and nothing has changed since then. The emotional scars that this person has from a few years in the foster care experience are much, much worse than those from many years of living in an abusive home. I am sure that there are cases when it is better but if it's a case of neglect and not pro active abuse I would think really long and hard before calling.

2) in most states CPS takes the children first while they investigate. If they find no abuse, then they return the children. The takes a minimum of days but can often take months.

Stop and imagine for a minute what would happen to your children if they were forced to spend a week with complete strangers and not allowed to see you at all. These strangers are likely not Jewish, definitely don't know their allergies, habits, hot buttons, etc. Depending on your child's age, they might not know they are ever seeing you or understand what is happening. Your girls may be expected to take off their 'repressive' modest clothing and may not feel comfortable about showing their bodies. They will be interviewed by strangers asking invasive questions, and examined and poked by strange doctors and you won't be there to reassure them. They will be expected to eat non-kosher food and depending on how much 'frum speak' you speak at home, they may not be understood when they talk.

If CPS finds nothing, your kids will always feel that they can be suddenly snatched away and put in a strange environment. You will always look over your shoulder and fear what your neighbors are thinking of you and how your parenting looks. If your toddler throws a tantrum, you will fear that someone thinks you hit the child. And once someone has called on you once, you will be under scrutiny forever and if someone calls on you again it will be much harder to get your children back.

Now I ask you; is what you are seeing really worse then that would be? Is there really no alternative?

How many of you don't want a single payer health are system because 'the gov't is incompetent and can't handle anything' but are quick to decide that the government is a better parent than your neighbor?
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 5:55 pm
groisamomma wrote:
Is it really true that kids are allowed to drive unrestrained in a taxi legally? I know everyone does it but is it really legal?

Yes, it's really legal. Many states have explicit exemptions for passengers in taxis. OTOH some states do not. I guess in those states you'd have a stronger case for calling CPS but I still think it's overkill.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:00 pm
amother wrote:
Yes, it's really legal.
its also legal to eat pork. We don't though bec it's not kosher.
Which would be a good analogy to a safety issue, that while may be legal it's not a good idea to do it.

Example: Even if you're in a taxi you should wear a seatbelt - although not legally required to in a taxi. And if you're in a taxi with a child you should bring a car seat-even though it's not legally required. Because if there's a fatal accident saying "my baby shouldn't have died because what I did was legal" isn't exactly going to bring back the dead child.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:01 pm
amother wrote:
Why would you be scared? Do you leave your baby outside by himself? Do you think this behavior is normal and doesn't warrant some investigation to see what other basic safety measures are not in place?


Never but the way you people are so quick to make that call rather than looking into the situation really scares me. I have seen a toddler walk down the block by himself the other day. I took him back to his house and told the mom that she is lucky nothing happened to him. I am sure she is extra careful now to keep that door closed. Had it been you to spot him, you probably would've whipped out your cell and judged the mom.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:10 pm
amother wrote:
the woman did neglect her baby.
Was this your attempt of giving an example of cps calling being overkill or are you giving an example of a clear case of neglect.

So you're saying leaving a sleeping baby outside in your yard where you have a clear visual the entire time and periodically checking on said child is neglect? Why? I disagree.
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mazal555




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:11 pm
I have to say, as the daughter of a Rabbi I think it is important to ask Rabbis about major decisions for more reasons than just halachic ones. Yes, of course Rabbis make mistakes and of course you mainly ask for halachic reasons, but if you choose your Rabbi carefully, Rabbis can have a perspective and experience that most people don't have.

Rabbis have seen many, many people at some of their most human moments. They have visited people when they are dying and heard their regrets and triumphs. They have helped people try to get their children back from CPS and often know how the system in their area works. When applicable, they can be helpful in getting a call answered more quickly. They have counseled people through their marital problems, issues with in-laws, their decisions of whether to have another child, through loss and through sickness, challenging children, and many other life moments. We learn a lot through life experience, through seeing what has worked in the past and what has not, and the right Rabbi can share a lot of wisdom in many difficult situations as well as giving a fresh perspective.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:11 pm
amother wrote:
its also legal to eat pork. We don't though bec it's not kosher.
Which would be a good analogy to a safety issue, that while may be legal it's not a good idea to do it.

Example: Even if you're in a taxi you should wear a seatbelt - although not legally required to in a taxi. And if you're in a taxi with a child you should bring a car seat-even though it's not legally required. Because if there's a fatal accident saying "my baby shouldn't have died because what I did was legal" isn't exactly going to bring back the dead child.

Again, we aren't talking about good parenting decision vs. bad parenting decision. It's a bad parenting decision. Agreed. Some kind of intervention is warranted and really kudos to OP for saying something to the father. But what we are discussing is what kind of intervention, if and when CPS should be called in. CPS is not the right address for every bad parenting decision. If something is explicitly legal sometimes it is hard to argue that it rises to the level of child endangerment at other times when there is no fundamental difference in the degree of theoretical danger.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 14 2016, 6:24 pm
flowerpower wrote:
Never but the way you people are so quick to make that call rather than looking into the situation really scares me. I have seen a toddler walk down the block by himself the other day. I took him back to his house and told the mom that she is lucky nothing happened to him. I am sure she is extra careful now to keep that door closed. Had it been you to spot him, you probably would've whipped out your cell and judged the mom.


Did you look into the situation? Did you make sure this doesn't happen every other day?

What if the toddler takes another stroll tomorrow and gets killed by a car?

You are sure she is extra careful now - why are you assuming that? What if she's not?

You accuse of over vigilance, while complacently doing what's most comfortable for you, when a little toddler could very well be neglected and in danger?
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