Vent: tznius at the pool

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:41 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

I agree with you that secular people talk about religious people abusing the system, but kid yourself, they also notice descrepencies in dress as well. For example, the wife of a well-respected Rabbi in my in-laws life does not dress the way that a Rabbi's wife should, and the women in my family have no respect for her, because they see the double standard. They themselves don't keep the Halachos of Tznius, but they also know that someone who supposedly represents the sect of Yiddishkeit that this Rabbi represents should have higher standards.

Maybe it's unfair and judgemental of them. Maybe this woman never asked to be the wife of a Rabbi, and is having a hard time with the role. Maybe she grew up with the standard that she portrays, and her husband moved more to the right after marriage, or something like that.

I'm not saying I agree with her standard of dress (not that I know what it is), I guess I'm just taking Dan L'Kaf Zchus a little further. I sometimes feel like we are making judgement calls 24/7.....and wonder if that's a good thing.

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:46 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Yes. I really believe that. They are naive and never learnt/ were taught the difference.

Oh please. I had the same education they had. One has to be exceptionally stupid not to know the difference between a hat and mixed swimming.

I see it as laziness, a way of taking the blame off of themselves and casting it on their upbringing, because if they really are too stupid not to know the difference, all it takes is five minutes of looking in a Sefer or calling a Rav to get an answer.

out-of-towner

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 12:58 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Look, I understand what you are saying, although it happens to be that this is not the case with this Rabbi's wife. My point is that if we think that the outside world is blind to it, they aren't, not by a long shot. And it's sad because if my IL's had more respect for this lady then she may have been able to bring them a little closer to Yiddishkeit, and it's sad that it isn't that way.

My point is that whether we like it or not, people DO judge. This is human nature and reality. Yes, there are a zillion reasons why someone could have a reason for doing something that is outwardly wrong, but still if something is done in public, it leaves people to judge. And I am not just talking about Frum people, I'm talking about everyone else.

I find that people who grew up in larger Frum enclaves don't always understand the importance of making a Kiddush Hashem. Come on, history shows that we Yidden are not exactly beloved by everyone! Why is it so hard to understand that by portraying yourself as a Frum person, you are representing Klall Yisrael??? I'm not talking about the OP, I'm talking about everyone else who was agahst at the idea that a Levush represents a community. But it does! And it sickens me when I see Yidden behaving out of line, because it only adds fuel to the anti-semetic fire. Yes, maybe I should be DLK"Z about these people, but I doubt that the outsiders to the Frum world are any more DLK"Z than I am, and consistent behavior like this is just bound to hurt us in the end.

Okay, rant over.

Maya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

There are a lot of things people think are halacha which are actually minhag or chumra, and vice versa. I've seen it plenty of times.

If women aren't taught to learn from the sources, and don't learn from the sources themselves, and don't learn on their own after 12th grade, how should they know?

I went to a seminary where we learned everything straight from the sources, as well as learning differences in opinion/machlokes/controversial topics in depth, and I was shocked. Time and time again. Things we had been taught as outright halacha turned out to be quite controversial, and all the practices more 'modern' people did that our teachers trashed turned out to be legitimate opinions and approaches. So many things in my elementary and high school were taught in such a distorted fashion.

Ignorant teachers, ignorant students who become ignorant teachers, and the cycle continues...

So you think that just because there's controversy over whether elbows need to be covered, and you were told one way but found out that another way is also valid, it translates into you being able to eat pork or break shabbos because now you "just don't know the difference anymore"?

Doesn't sound very smart to me.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:45 pm

Maya wrote:

No, of course not. I did not say that. What I did say is that there is immense ignorance and misconceptions regarding what is halacha, chumrah, minhag, and mesorah.

tigerwife

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:52 pm

Plenty of judgment all around. I shocked some sheltered girls when they found out I was supporting a husband in learning, stopped watching movies, etc. Why were they shocked? Was it because of my fall and denim skirt (despite covering all hair and full knees)?

But hey, at least I'm consistent. I wouldn't wear a bikini in public if I am makpid to cover my knees. At one point in high school I tried conforming more to adhere to 'tznius' standards but it made me hate the way I looked and I decided never again. Wearing denim or a baseball hat on a fall has nothing to do with Halacha and everything to do with community standards (I'm not talking about knees and elbows because that has to do with minhag). The question is, how much does it matter to you to live up to everyone's standards? Please be true to yourself, it's not worth the act.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 1:59 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Precisely... misplaced priorities. That's what I was trying to say before.

If you don't have the proper background in halacha and how it works, it is very easy to make chumras more important than halachos, think that a halacha and a minhag are equal or the minhag is more important, and give priority to a chumra over halacha.

strawberry cola

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 3:02 pm

I think a danger zone is hovering here.
Several years ago, I read a powerful piece by Sara Rigler. She wrote that people are being very careful with shemiras halashon, but the one area in which the yetzer hara is still riding high is people speaking negatively about other groups. We are so quick to think of ourselves as normal, and to judge others who, within the framework of halacha and proper Torah leadership, follow a different derech.
The op posted about some behavior that bothered her and people wrote sharing their opinions, urging benefit of the doubt etc.
But unfortunately the conversation seems to have degenerated into "them," "they," "those people from those neighborhoods who are hypocritcial/naive" etc.
This is really wrong. Let's work on ourselves, each of us, for we are all works in progress. And let's remember the imperative of Ahavas Yisrael, which can reverse the sinas chinam that destroyed the Beis Hamikdash. Please.
In the tefillah of the Chofetz Chaim asking Hashem to protectus from sinning with lashon hara, we say "V'ezaher m'lidaber afilu al yachid v'kol sheken al Klal Yisrael O AL CHELEK MEHEM

dancingqueen

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 3:20 pm

strawberry cola wrote:

Honeydew, there is a vast difference between "different reasons for choosing a chassidic lifestyle" and keeping the halacha. We are not talking about types of headcovering or the mesorah of payos or a shtreimel- mixed swimming is assur min Hatorah. Hashem and His Torah are everywhere, even in Cancun.

And to the person who wrote about Jews who are makpid on certain things but have terrible middos- of course there are people who dont represent the best of us but honestly- I dont think anyone is like the majority of us when it comes to midos. My friend asked a non-Jew on the train if she could please use his cellphone to make an urgent call (hers was suddenly not working) and he looked at her as though she was nuts and totally out of line. To us, letting someone (including a non-Jew) use our phone would be so natural. As are doing chessed, being polite, patient and compassionate.

Really, you would let any random stranger borrow your phone? I would maybe let another mom with kids with her use it but otherwise I would be cautious. Also plenty of non frum people do tons of chessed and are patient and compassionate.

My confusion is that people are saying don't judge us by our levush, and even, we don't have a choice but to wear so when we have the chance we'll do whatever we want. But isn't the levush worn purposely to set yourselves apart and proclaim your status as God-fearing? I'm the last person ever to be offended by a lady's elbows and knees but this seems odd to me.

Zehava

Fri, Jul 29 2016, 4:30 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

.

My confusion is that people are saying don't judge us by our levush, and even, we don't have a choice but to wear so when we have the chance we'll do whatever we want. But isn't the levush worn purposely to set yourselves apart and proclaim your status as God-fearing? I'm the last person ever to be offended by a lady's elbows and knees but this seems odd to me.

Which part confuses you? Don't you believe a person when they say they don't have a choice?
When one doesn't have a choice they don't have a choice. Which means the only reason they wear what they wear is because wait for it....
They don't have a choice