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Male guest who doesn't respect my boundaries
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joystock




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:02 pm
We've been hosting a middle-aged man for shabbos every few weeks since sukkos. He's going through a divorce and custody battle currently, and is turning towards Yiddishkeit and my community in particular for support. We enjoy having him. He's a great conversationalist and a really nice guy. The kids enjoy his company as well. He seems really interested in learning more about Judaism. Since he is really charismatic, he is constantly making new friends in my neighborhood, and gets invited almost every week. But, he comes from a different world and doesn't quite understand the boundaries that exist in our circles between men and women. He is way too friendly to me, and when my husband is not around it makes me really uncomfortable. He tries to confide in me and shares very personal info. He also asks me about myself and my interests.... He has never said or done anything improper, but he acts like he wants to be a close friend. My husband had a very open conversation with him explaining how boundaries work in our community. He apologized and behaved the next few times, but now he's back to his old ways, and is trying to get close again. I am very uncomfortable around him. I spoke to another woman who hosts him and she feels the same way.... My husband basically told him again yesterday how I feel and pretty much turned down his request for another invitation. I don't want him here anymore, but I also don't wanna want to turn him off from Yiddishkeit. I heard that many people are not inviting him as much now, and I'm afraid this will cause him to have negative feelings towards frum Jews. Any advice?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:12 pm
It would have been best for you to find something that you could say directly -- "Guest, I know that DH talked to you about our boundaries. That comment/question/line of conversation is outside of those boundaries. Please change the subject; I'm getting uncomfortable."

But at this point, if you're done, then let it go and don't stress. If he becomes frum, you only would have been one factor. And if he doesn't, you're only one factor.

It's Hashem's world. Don't take overmuch responsibility for how things turn out.
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The Happy Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:20 pm
Can you make sure gets only there when your husband is there? Have him sit close to your husband and you sit on the other side of the table.
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joystock




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:25 pm
So actually when he comes it's for the entire shabbos, since he doesn't live nearby. Dh suggested telling him to find accommodations nearby and just come for the meal and then I could do as u suggest. And I guess if he does start a conversation, I can follow imasingers advice and be very open about how it makes me feel... Maybe
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 2:44 pm
I had the same idea story with a frum divorced guy who comes from overseas quite often and pops into us. He always makes over friendly conversations with me, till I just showed him a cold nod and didn't respond much. He got the message b"h.
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LittleRed




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 3:06 pm
Imo you did the right thing. you can't make someone else frum at the expense of your own frumkeit. If he has already been told about maintaining boundaries and is choosing to ignore it for whatever reason, your husband did the right thing.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Fri, Jul 29 2016, 3:32 pm
I'm all for Kiruv, but I wouldn't let someone like this come to my home and sleepover so regularly. You're treating him like family so he's acting like he's an intimate part of your life.

Does anyone even know for sure that his story checks out? I don't know..his charisma..his supposed interest in in yiddishkeit..his poor boundaries despite being told explicitly..something seems a little off. He's not dumb, he knows that in out world, saying you're Interested in yiddishkeit gets you a steady flow of free accommodations, company, warmth, and can be a nice escape for a lonely weirdo. Most people don't suddenly start turning to yiddishkeit when they're in a custody battle..I wouldn't bet much on this guy..he just wants a place to go.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 30 2016, 9:25 pm
Just curious- how did your husband phrase the boundary issue? Some cultural differences might be at play here. I know many non-frum or non-Jewish people who wouldn't think twice at saying things that are automatic "boundary violations" in our circles. Your husband may have thought it obvious and not specified things. Just saying "don't be too friendly or personal with my wife" might not be enough info. He may just be unaware. Did you point out explicitly "this isn't said/done"?
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 30 2016, 9:30 pm
Is there a Rav in the community who he knows and who you can express your concerns to?
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joystock




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 7:45 am
You're right navy, he does seem a little "off". He unloads to anyone who will listen, male or female. I think he just needs a good therapist... And initially I felt as you do that he was taking advantage of our hospitality and not really sincere. Then dh pointed out that while some people come to Torah for intellectual reasons, others are turned on by friendship and a good cholent, so it's not my place to judge or turn someone away. Plus, every time he comes to us we are enabling him to keep shabbos for that week, which is a big thing .
Little ducky, in response to ur question, dh was very explicit. He told him that any conversations between the two of us are uncomfortable for me, and he should not share any details of his personal life. He told him that the discussions at the table are ok when dh is there. Out of towner, we do know a rav whom he is close to. Dh spoke to him once about another issue with this guy. I'll ask him to speak to him about this. Someone has to talk to him and set him straight before he loses all his new friends. That would be a shame, since he does seem to want to make some positive changes in his life.
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 11:20 am
amother wrote:
I'm all for Kiruv, but I wouldn't let someone like this come to my home and sleepover so regularly. You're treating him like family so he's acting like he's an intimate part of your life.

Does anyone even know for sure that his story checks out? I don't know..his charisma..his supposed interest in in yiddishkeit..his poor boundaries despite being told explicitly..something seems a little off. He's not dumb, he knows that in out world, saying you're Interested in yiddishkeit gets you a steady flow of free accommodations, company, warmth, and can be a nice escape for a lonely weirdo. Most people don't suddenly start turning to yiddishkeit when they're in a custody battle..I wouldn't bet much on this guy..he just wants a place to go.

I agree. He is secular but not from another planet. He doesn't comply with your request which is very odd. I wouldn't have him sleepover at all. Since you have little children I would be very cautious. I think about the worst case scenario. Who even knows why he is really getting divorced and why is he sleeping over every Shabbos. It's very odd and I wouldn't take chances.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 11:34 am
joystock wrote:
We've been hosting a middle-aged man for shabbos every few weeks since sukkos. He's going through a divorce and custody battle currently, and is turning towards Yiddishkeit and my community in particular for support. We enjoy having him. He's a great conversationalist and a really nice guy. The kids enjoy his company as well. He seems really interested in learning more about Judaism. Since he is really charismatic, he is constantly making new friends in my neighborhood, and gets invited almost every week. But, he comes from a different world and doesn't quite understand the boundaries that exist in our circles between men and women. He is way too friendly to me, and when my husband is not around it makes me really uncomfortable. He tries to confide in me and shares very personal info. He also asks me about myself and my interests.... He has never said or done anything improper, but he acts like he wants to be a close friend. My husband had a very open conversation with him explaining how boundaries work in our community. He apologized and behaved the next few times, but now he's back to his old ways, and is trying to get close again. I am very uncomfortable around him. I spoke to another woman who hosts him and she feels the same way.... My husband basically told him again yesterday how I feel and pretty much turned down his request for another invitation. I don't want him here anymore, but I also don't wanna want to turn him off from Yiddishkeit. I heard that many people are not inviting him as much now, and I'm afraid this will cause him to have negative feelings towards frum Jews. Any advice?


When you allow someone to ignore a "No", you are opening yourself up towards victimization. Oversharing is one technique someone with nefarious intentions uses to make his victims comfortable. You also have children in the home.

1) Read Protecting The Gift by Gavin DeBecker. It will explain to you just how seriously this man's behavior should be taken. As far as I'm concerned, just from what you said, he's crossed several red lines. Gavin DeBecker calls respecting your intuition "listening to the little "uh-oh" voice inside your stomach. Sounds like your "uh-oh" voice, and the "uh-oh" voice of your friend are both screaming. Listen to that, it's the intuition Hashem gave you to use to protect yourself and your children.

2) Chayecha Kodmin - Kiruv is nice, but your primary obligation is to protect yourself and your family. Let some charismatic (male) rabbi reach out to him. If you are really unsure, speak to your LOR. Make sure to furnish all the information you gave us here.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 4:32 pm
You should never be alone with him in the first place; there are reasons there are laws of Yichud!!
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joystock




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 5:05 pm
There has never been a violation of hilchos yichud... The kids are around, door is unlocked, dh upstairs etc.
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cm




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2016, 5:58 pm
Give him another chance.

You say this has been going on since Sukkot - still less than a year, and not enough time to internalize these new and counter-intuitive social mores. Even with explicit instructions, he has to change a lot of entrenched behaviors and social expectations in order to fit in with your community.

In your first post you say he has never said or done anything improper, but is charismatic and friendly. This is not so terrible! Have your husband continue to counsel him not just before but also after social gatherings, to review both the successful parts and specific transgressions. Even with his prior coaching, he probably has no idea when he is crossing the line.

It could be that a different community would be a better fit for him. Rather than just letting him drift away, perhaps engineer an introduction to a hospitality coordinator from another shul.
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joystock




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 12 2016, 1:01 pm
So dh had another explicit conversation a couple weeks ago with our guest and explained why he couldn't come to us for shabbos. He called again in the beginning of the week to reiterate his apologies and see if he could possibly still come. Dh said that I'm not comfortable with it. He then made arrangements to stay with our neighbors down the block and asked if he could come over on shabbos to apologize to me in person. Dh told him not to push the boundaries and strongly encouraged him to speak to a rav whom he is close to. He said he would. ... I wouldn't be shocked if he knocked at the door. I'm thinking about keeping it locked, even though that would be really inconvenient since my kids are in and out all day. ...
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 12 2016, 1:09 pm
joystock wrote:
So dh had another explicit conversation a couple weeks ago with our guest and explained why he couldn't come to us for shabbos. He called again in the beginning of the week to reiterate his apologies and see if he could possibly still come. Dh said that I'm not comfortable with it. He then made arrangements to stay with our neighbors down the block and asked if he could come over on shabbos to apologize to me in person. Dh told him not to push the boundaries and strongly encouraged him to speak to a rav whom he is close to. He said he would. ... I wouldn't be shocked if he knocked at the door. I'm thinking about keeping it locked, even though that would be really inconvenient since my kids are in and out all day. ...
I'd allow him the opportunity to apologize in the presence of your DH. Let the guy get some closure or he'll keep coming back. Plus, you can be firm about boundaries without being too cruel about it.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 12 2016, 1:46 pm
joystock wrote:
So dh had another explicit conversation a couple weeks ago with our guest and explained why he couldn't come to us for shabbos. He called again in the beginning of the week to reiterate his apologies and see if he could possibly still come. Dh said that I'm not comfortable with it. He then made arrangements to stay with our neighbors down the block and asked if he could come over on shabbos to apologize to me in person. Dh told him not to push the boundaries and strongly encouraged him to speak to a rav whom he is close to. He said he would. ... I wouldn't be shocked if he knocked at the door. I'm thinking about keeping it locked, even though that would be really inconvenient since my kids are in and out all day. ...


I think you are overreacting
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Fri, Aug 12 2016, 2:10 pm
I think the fact that he keeps wanting to push the boundaries and see you despite being told that you are uncomfortable with it is a little stalker ish. A normal person would be ashamed of his behavior after being called out on it and told that h needs to stay away from you. This is not normal behavior. Listen to your gut feelings.
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bluebird




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 12 2016, 2:11 pm
debsey wrote:
I'd allow him the opportunity to apologize in the presence of your DH. Let the guy get some closure or he'll keep coming back. Plus, you can be firm about boundaries without being too cruel about it.


I agree with this. He can apologize sincerely, and you can keep setting and enforcing the boundaries you need. An apology doesn't mean that you have to (or should) return to the way things were.
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