Do Arabic Jews not identify as Arabic? spinoff

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:01 pm

I am an Ashkenazi Jew who has a wide mix of friends, including many Sephardi Arabic friends. I am now learning on another forum that "most Arabic Jews don't identify as Arabic". I am asking honestly, trying to learn here, although I understand that my question may be provocative, do Arabic Jews not identify as Arabic, or is this Ashkenazi "whitewashing" of Jewish Arabic culture? Because a lot of my Arabic Jewish friends are very much in touch with their own Arabic culture. So is this a fact, or is this something that we Askenazi Jews need to learn more about and be more sensitive to?

My experience has been more like what Mazal wrote. My Arabic Jewish friends are proud of their Arabic culture. Many of them speak Arabic- especially those who were originally from an Arabic country (such as Syrians). I also see that my Ashkenazi Jewish friends are not always aware of this. I was actually once on the train with an Ashkenazi Israeli friend of mine (who's pretty cultural and speaks Arabic), and two men across from us, one of them younger, one older, were talking in Arabic. The friend was suddenly "alert" and I said, "I'd put money down that those men are Jewish." The Israeli friend was like, "Nah, I don't think so. The younger generation doesn't speak Arabic." We were about to get off the train, when the younger man picked up his phone. "Ken, mah nishmah."

Another "funny" experience (more detailed, which is why I'm anonymous on the message board) involves a very very frum and insular neighbor of my parents. I was visiting at home (my parents are far more right wing, as their community) and my neighbor asked about my line of work, which involves assisting people from countries all over the world. I had walked to the kitchen from the living room, and she calls out to me, "Do you help Arabs too?" Luckily, I was in another room, so this gave me time to not react instantly- at least verbally. By the time I returned, I guess I had decided to not even tackle that entire issue, and just narrow it down to one group she might be more sympathetic to.
Me: "You know, there are Jews who are Arabs as well."
Neighbor: "Really? Oh..." waving dismissively, "You mean like Persians?"
My Persian brother-in-law also in the room, sitting up suddenly.
Me: "No, Persians are not Arabs...."

I'd love to hear more about this from Jewish people from Arabic countries or of Arabic descent. Does it bother you to be identified as an Arabic Jew? Or do you get offended if people say you aren't Arabic? Or neither?

amother

Amber

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:03 pm

I am not Sephardic, but I have some close Sephardi friends, and they are very proud of their heritage. They identity as Syrian, Moroccan, and Iraqi, etc.. Some know Arabic quite well. Knowing them, I think they would probably think that poster was being very rude and close minded.

amother

Black

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:14 pm

I definitely am an Arab Jew. I have common sense and a mirror so I can tell. Smile

My husband speaks Arabic as a first language and is in his 30s and born in Israel.

I realize that this could be racist the other way but a lot of times I feel like we all picked up cultural things in the diaspora, good and bad, and a lot of ashkenazim picked up racism. I have experienced more racism in my life from other Jews than anyone else (In israel and in the USA). I find it very uncomfortable when people talk about Arabs this and Arabs that.

mazal555

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:15 pm

Well, you know what I think about this Wink

mazal555

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 12:17 pm

And Persians aren't Arabs they are Aryans

cnc

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 1:01 pm

I know many people that speak Arabic as a first language but they all identify themselves as Syrians.

MrsEsther

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 1:19 pm

I am a Syrian jew and we speak arabic at home.
Yes We are arabs but would HATE to be called that, Arabs are associated as non jews, muslims or Christian!
We like to be called syrian, damascus, allepo,...depending from the city in Syria that you came from.
We are Syrian and proud of our community!!

JerseyShore

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 1:44 pm

cnc wrote:

I know many people that speak Arabic as a first language but they all identify themselves as Syrians.

I grew up in the Syrian community. Syria did not exist before 1920 when a League of Nations mandate carved the new country of Syria out of the former Ottoman provinces.

Syrian Jews identify themselves as "Aleppo" (Halab) or "Damascus"(El Sham for the neighborhood that most of the Jews lived in) or "Syrian" even though most of our grandparents and great grandparent's naturalization papers say "Turkey" on them for "country of origin".

The term "Arab Jews" was used during the First World War by Jews of Middle Eastern origin living in western countries, to support their case that they were not Turks and should not be treated as enemy aliens.

The term "Arab Jew" has been used more recently by Dr. Ella Shohat, David Shasha, Jordan Elgrably,André Azoulay, Jewish adviser to Moroccan King Mohammed VI, Sasson Somekh, Ilan Halevi and others as an alternative to the term "Mizrahi" which many find offensive.

Syrian Jews speak Arabic, eat Arabic food, dance to Arabic music at weddings and share so much of the culture with Muslim Syrians that when Dr. Imad Mustafa, Syrian Consulate to the US attended a wedding in Brooklyn, he marveled that he "felt like he was in his grandparents' house".

amother

Coral

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 1:53 pm

OP

Do you mean identify as Jews from the Arab countries they have roots in? Or do you mean actually identify with the non-Jewish Arabic culture of those countries?

Bernie Sanders is from the only Askenizim I know of who identifies himself "as the son of Polish immigrants" Virtually all other Askenazim mean the minhagim of the place their ancestors came from when they say they are Polish,Litviish,Yekkishe etc. They don't identify with the country itself at all.

amother

Amber

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 1:56 pm

amother wrote:

Not Hungarians.

As a general rule, there may be exceptions - They identify as Hungarian, have great pride in the whole Hungarian culture, many speak Hungarian even after three generations in America, eat national Hungarian foods, etc.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 3:04 pm

I was a guest at a family who mentioned that they wait 3 hours between meat and milk.
I said oh, you are yekkes? And they proudly responded: We prefer to call ourselves Germans!

amother

Amber

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 3:06 pm

amother wrote:

I was a guest at a family who mentioned that they wait 3 hours between meat and milk.
I said oh, you are yekkes? And they proudly responded: We prefer to call ourselves Germans!

Come to think of it, I've definitely heard people refer to themselves as 'Galician' in terms of culture and upbringing.

amother

Coral

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 4:52 pm

amother wrote:

Come to think of it, I've definitely heard people refer to themselves as 'Galician' in terms of culture and upbringing.

I never heard any NON-Jew refer to themselves that way. A "galitzeaner" is a frum cultural reference . A non-Jew who stems from Western Poland would think of themself as being Polish.

amother

Amber

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 4:54 pm

amother wrote:

I never heard any NON-Jew refer to themselves that way. A "galitzeaner" is a frum cultural reference . A non-Jew who stems from Western Poland would think of themself as being Polish.

I'm talking about frum Jews who stem from Galicia... And definitely have cultural imprints from there.

yogabird

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 5:15 pm

mazal555 wrote:

And Persians aren't Arabs they are Aryans

How so?

amother

Amber

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 5:18 pm

[quote="yogabird"]How so?[/quote

Aryan is actually an Old Persian word.

mazal555

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 6:08 pm

yogabird wrote:

How so?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Persians are the original Aryans. And all the Persians I know identify racially as Aryans

To life

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 6:53 pm

So my family is from Syria. We r very proud syrian s and yes we have the arab culture but the word arab refers to the non jews. We go by where in syria we r from damascus shamis allepo is halabi and lebanon is bnani. We r not Arabs
Actually we even call the non jews arab in arabic. Arab is an arabic word

cnc

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 7:02 pm

JerseyShore wrote:

Very interesting..I actually know a few people with the surname Halabi and Halabieh.
They told me that that's the area that they originated from.
Based on your post that must be Aleppo.

I think it is beautiful how they take such pride in their origins and culture .
I don't find that so much by Ashkenazim. (Not that we have anything against our culture- it's just not such a focus by us...)

octopus

Sun, Jul 31 2016, 7:03 pm

I thought that the original syrian jews escaped European persecution (very early on), and many will typically have light eyes and light hair.

ETA like from spain or portugal