Do Arabic Jews not identify as Arabic? spinoff

Dandelion1

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 11:58 am

Well, then by all means, carry on as you were. I certainly realize that I don't "get" to define anyone's self-definition. I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum though, and I suppose that I assumed that that is what was happening here. I certainly did not intend to insult anyone's mothers.

I will say however, that for people who are so concerned with negative cultural labels, I have yet to see a post that hasn't rudely insulted Ashkenazim or made some sort of reference to the "Ashkenazim" who are intent upon glorifying their own culture while assuming that they "get" to deny you yours.

I'm going to assume that you didn't really read my posts, since I did anything BUT glorify my own culture. In fact I repeatedly stated that my surprise stemmed from the fact that my "Eastern European" grandparents (again, merely a description of where they were born), wanted nothing more than to distance themselves from the oppressive racism and culture of their countries of birth. Similarly, my dh's family, born in several Muslim countries, spoke only of the hatred and violence that they experienced there, and proudly identified themselves as Jews and as Israelis.

To be honest, I am still unclear on the exact distinction being made here. This is very new to me, but you learn something new every day.

sequoia

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 12:08 pm

aleph wrote:

You misunderstand. It's not about glorifying your culture while demeaning another's. It's about the fact that you're explaining to people what they should call themselves or how they should define themselves. You don't get to do that. No one does.

You write: "my "Eastern European" grandparents (again, merely a description of where they were born), wanted nothing more than to distance themselves from the oppressive racism and culture of their countries of birth." That's YOUR experience. No one is denying it. But likewise, you don't get to deny someone else's experience. You don't get to tell them what to think, how to feel, what attitude to adopt to their country of origin, or in what terms to define themselves.

Simply put: if someone says, "I am an Arab Jew," it's not okay to reply, "No, you're not."

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 12:23 pm

Mazal, where did your family and friends who identify as Arab Jews originate?
It is true that some Jewish communities did not identify themselves as Arabs even though they were living among Arabs in an Arab speaking country. I am Sephardic. My family loves the culture and feel very connected to it. They also prospered in Egypt while they were able to. However, they didn't identify as Arab while they were living there. It's a fact. I can only speculate as to why. I am answering Ops question that Yes, there are Jews who lived in Arab countries who do not identify themselves as Arabs. There is no need for anyone who does identify themselves as an Arab Jew to be insulted. I love you just the same as anyone else.

Dandelion1

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 12:24 pm

sequoia wrote:

You misunderstand. It's not about glorifying your culture while demeaning another's. It's about the fact that you're explaining to people what they should call themselves or how they should define themselves. You don't get to do that. No one does.

You write: "my "Eastern European" grandparents (again, merely a description of where they were born), wanted nothing more than to distance themselves from the oppressive racism and culture of their countries of birth." That's YOUR experience. No one is denying it. But likewise, you don't get to deny someone else's experience. You don't get to tell them what to think, how to feel, what attitude to adopt to their country of origin, or in what terms to define themselves. Simply put: if someone says, "I am an Arab Jew," it's not okay to reply, "No, you're not."

I am quite sure that I did nothing of the sort.

If I recall correctly, I initially commented when someone said that when Rabbis make speeches about terrorism, she is hurt and insulted because he is speaking of the Arabs and this is how she looks and identifies. I asked if she would consider speaking of German atrocities to be insulting to Jews from Germany who may look German and retain some culture of their country of origin.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. As I said, I don't believe that I "get" to tell anyone anything about how they should think or feel. Just participating in what seemed like an interesting conversation.

mazal555

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 1:05 pm

amother wrote:

Yemen, Egypt, Morocco (I know, technically incorrect, a lot of Moroccans are technically Berbers, but identity is not technical), Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Lebanon and Iraq.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 1:46 pm

amother wrote:

In Egypt, it wasn't like the Arabs (non Jews) and the Jews lived together in harmony. They hated each other and parents would tell their their Jewish children not to mingle with them. The Jews were eventually expelled from the land and they had to leave all their property behind and scatter to different places, many of them separating from their families and not being able to reunite for years. It wasn't anything as bad as the halacaust, however it can be comparible to identifying as Germans or Nazis. The "Arabs" as a nation were not the Jews friends and the Jews were eventually chased out with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. So I think that's the reason many Egyptian/Syrian Jews may not identify as Arab.

Most of the Jews in Egypt had French, British or other foreign citizenship. When Nasser took power and promoted the "pan Arabic" identity, ALL of the foreigners had their property "nationalized". This had nothing to do with anti Semitism; it applied to Greeks, Armenians, Europeans, everyone no matter what faith they were.

Things got a lot worse after the Lavon Affair, an Israeli false flag operation on behalf of the UK and US in which American and British sites were bombed. Naturally, after Jews were caught doing this operation, the loyalties of Egypt's Jews were questioned.

There is a lot of information that has recently become declassified. The Americans and the British did not want Nasser to nationalize the Suez Canal for fear that the extra tariffs would drive up petrol prices.

The British also funded Muslim Brotherhood (which was created by the British in 1929) as an antidote to Egyptian Nationalism.

Israel fought the Sinai Campaign on behalf of the UK and Americans. The goal was to retake the Suez and perhaps even Cairo to overthrow Nasser's government which was part of a pan Arabic coalition with Syria.

Thousands of Jewish boys died in that war and thousands more in the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War which were both the continuations of the Sinai Campaign.

If you study these original documents (which I have) you will learn that much of Israel's military history was not a matter of "survival" as much as it was a political alliance with the US and UK.

I don't know how you feel about the loss of Jewish life for these reasons, but as someone who has made too many shiva calls for families mourning the loss of Jewish boys......well I just really do not have the words.

JerseyShore

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 1:56 pm

mazal555 wrote:

Yemen, Egypt, Morocco (I know, technically incorrect, a lot of Moroccans are technically Berbers, but identity is not technical), Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Lebanon and Iraq.

My mother's family had French citizenship, spoke French, went to French schools (my mother's great uncle brought the Alliance) and viewed themselves as much more sophisticated because of it.

Of course after the French were overthrown, they fled to France, Israel, Canada and the US.

Taking French citizenship was not a matter of hating the Arabs, it was a way to achieve success because it allowed tariff free trading with Europe.

My mother's family made men's shirts in a factory near Oran from cotton was grown in Egypt, woven in Manchester, London and Lodz, sewn in Oran and then shipped back to Europe.

One brother went London, the other went to Poland briefly but could not cope with the anti Semitism which they were not used to in North Africa, so they left. My aunt Dora and her family were among the more than 5000 Jews saved during WWII by the Imam of the Great Mosque of Paris. There is a book about it and my cousin told the story to the authors.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 2:17 pm

amother wrote:

Alliances are a tactical decision, that for an endangered state like Israel can spell the difference between survival and demise.
You seem to hold to a very narrow defintion of the word survival.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 3:10 pm

sequoia wrote:

I don't agree. If academics can debate the validity of the term "Arab-Jew" and subject it to rigorous intellectual examination, I don't see why we can't legitimately perform the same exercise here.
Feelings are not the issue here. We're debating the intellectual integrity of a term.
Mazal can define herself as an Arab if she feels like an Arab. But I am not obliged to accept the objective validity of her subjective self definition.

Mrs Bissli

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 3:41 pm

A rather belated entry to the discussion--firstly, it's good to see active discussion on Sephardim/Mizrachim in the main forum.

Jersey Shore (love the s/n!) is absolutely correct about the historical usage of the term Arab Jews. It is also because Turkish Jews are mainly Ladino-speaking western Sephardim so their culture is different from Arabic culture. We definitely have a sizeable number of Jews in our community who identify as Arab Jews, but I must say they tend to be older generations who came here before the expulsion of Jews under the pan-Arabism pretence. Nascent Iraqi country had a fair representatives of Jews who also supported pan-Arabism/independence movement from UK in its initial state before it turned into a nasty anti-Semitism. On the other hand, I do know younger generation (often second-generation) Jews who 'reclaim' their identity as Arab Jews (why let Muslims monopolise Arab banner?). So Mazal is definitely not a lone voice in identifying herself as Arab Jews. Although many of my generation do not speak Arabic as fluently as we should embarrassed

, a good number of my contemporaries are still fluent (at least speaking and listening), use Arabic in haggada and some colloquial phrases.

Many of us have multiple layers of affiliation: very often someone would say he/she is a Baghdadi, as well as Iraqi Jew, Sephardi/Mizrachi Jews and Arab Jew. Just like you can be Hungarian/Yekkish/Galiziner, Ashkenazi and an American citizen. I see absolutely no difficulty or reason for confusion (or urge to refute how one identifies).

To be honest, Iraqi or Baghdadi Jews have more in common with non-Jewish Iraqis when it comes to food (kashrut issues aside), language (though distinctive differences in Judeo-Arabic), music, jokes, geographical awareness, shared history etc, than say, Tunisian Jews. I think vast majority of our parents generation went to 'French' school(esp girls) , but it's Alliance Israelite schools.

Here in UK, you fill in ethnicity (optional) when you apply to school or go to GP/hospital etc, I think I know many non-British Sephardi/Mizrachi friends who tick Arab rather than White (esp if they're not British they'll be categorised as White-Other), though some Indian Jewish friends opt for Indian (under Asian category).

ora_43

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 4:26 pm

sequoia wrote:

Simply put: if someone says, "I am an Arab Jew," it's not okay to reply, "No, you're not."

Nobody is saying that!!!

In fact, several of us are going out of our way to say the exact opposite.

The only debate over terminology is what terms are commonly used today, not what terms should be used. That's not an identity thing, it's a facts thing. If I say "I view myself as a White Hebrew," people should just say "OK," if I say "I view myself as a White Hebrew, and that's the term most American Jews prefer" - they get to disagree with me without me calling them racist. Even if they aren't American.

ora_43

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 4:39 pm

mazal555 wrote:

And to say that Arab jews are claiming their identity as an anti-zionist movement is so offensive to all of my relatives who have died in the IDF, lived on the periphery and settlements, and so many other things for the state of Israel.

I thought my previous post was clear, but OK, let's try this again.

The thing about anti-Zionism was a direct quote from Wikipedia. It was not me saying that.

If you reread it, or maybe just read it yourself on Wiki, I think you'll see that it doesn't say that every person who uses the term "Arab Jew" is an anti-Zionist, only that anti-Zionist groups are among the more well-known users of the term. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who use the term in a positive way.

I hope this clears things up.

mazal555

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 6:22 pm

ora_43 wrote:

You do realize that anyone can edit Wikipedia, right? I edit Wikipedia all the time and my English isn't even so wonderful. Wikipedia is definitely not a valid source if you want to have a technical scholarly discourse. Don't play it both ways and say ' we are having a technical debate' and bring in Wikipedia.

And I am by no means the only person here saying that we are Arab Jews. At least half the women on this thread are saying that the level either applies to them or is pretty widespread. So why are you fighting this so hard?

mazal555

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 6:24 pm

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Thank you for this very informative post

amother

Black

Tue, Aug 02 2016, 7:02 pm

aleph wrote:

And the irony and hypocrisy of these comments in the midst of this discussion are lost on you somehow?

Are we supposed to still believe your pronouncements of kindness and tolerance towards all?

Your denouncement of cultural derision seems to only apply to your own culture....

Irony and hypocrisy? Are you confusing me with someone else?

I am pretty sure I'm racist, because I think, based on personal experience, that quite a lot of Ashkanazim are racist. That sounds like a racist belief, so I'm probably a racist too. Other people preach kindness and tolerance, I believe in kindness and tolerance, but I am personally probably falling short of my ideals so I should keep my mouth shut.

Also, I am angry. My relatives were irradiated in Israel as part of medical experiments in the 50s. They were ringworm children and it was authorized by Dr Chaim Sheba. And then the Ashkanazim went and named a hospital after him! They, as a group, honored the person who did this. And I find that hard to come to terms with.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:53 am

mazal555 wrote:

So Wikipedia - which, for all its faults, does cite external scholarly sources that can be perused for corroboration, counts for nothing but Imamother is a valid basis for your assertions of the term's currency?