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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
DD, 13yo, doesn't want to fast.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 3:57 am
DD is old enough to understand the importance of fast days. She just plain doesn't want to do it. She has some impulse control issues, but I figure if she can stay off her beloved computer for all of Shabbos, she can at least try to fast. For some reason, she's super resistant to the whole idea.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to talk to her about this?
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:05 am
Is she resistant to other religious things? Has she fasted before?

Fasting is hard. My teens complain all day. Rolling Eyes

Maybe suggest she take it an hour at a time?

How about framing it as an exercise in empathy - if she gets to experience true hunger, she will be able to be truly empathetic to starving children in Africa and this will make her into a more caring person.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:10 am
This may not be a popular opinion but if she needs to be talked into it even though she understands, it's time to back off. She knows it's important and she knows it's important to you. Back off and let her make her own decision. She needs to own it. (Because this year is a nidcha it's really less of an issue, but even if it weren't I would still say the same thing.) What you're encountering is counterwill. Pushing harder is only going to make her push back harder. It's hard but you should let it go.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:11 am
Hugs, it's not easy. Has she fasted before?

Here's what has helped some of my reluctant fasters.

- Sympathize. Fasting is hard. Ask if there is anything you can do to make a fast day easier.

- Teach her about shiurim. Learn the relevant halacha together. Help her prepare by setting aside pre measured portions, and giving her a timer.

- See if you can get her to agree to fast for part of the day; it's better than nothing.

- Have another trusted rav, Morah, advisor to reinforce and suggest, so that this doesn't settle as a mom-kid control battle.

- Ask a shaila. It could be that her psychological challenges constitute a reason for leniency.

- Remember that now that she is Bat Mitzvah, this is ultimately on her neshama, not yours. You can coach, encourage, advise, cheer even partial success. But in the end, it's on her, not you. You'll do the most good by encouragement.

Hatzlacha!

ETA:. I like Raisin's idea. What if you put a sum of money in a pushke for every hour of her success, and donated the collection to the cause of her choice (ideally hunger related) at the end?


Last edited by imasinger on Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:12 am
I'll try having her go an hour at a time.

She has always been super empathetic. When she was little, I had to constantly stop her from giving all of her toys away, because other kids could easily convince her that they "needed them".

Even now, she has a friend from school who is extremely poor, and she would bring extra lunch so this girl would have what to eat. She always did it in a way that would not embarrass the girl, and say things like "Oh no, my mom gave me this stuff again. I really don't like it, do you want it?" or "I had a big breakfast and I'm not hungry. Why don't you take it?" She had a whole range of things she would say, so that it never looked like charity or pity. If DD didn't pack enough for herself, she would come home really hungry, and raid the refrigerator. I tried to pack double lunches whenever I could, so they both would have enough to eat.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:15 am
I would absolutely leave her alone. Suggest that if she at least fasts from shkia til the morning that would be ok, if she can make it til chatzot even better. Fasting is very very hard. It is a serious fast, but a lot lot lot less important than Yom Kippur. Better you not make a big deal about it than risk turning her off other things. Particularly this year as the fast is nidche. If she fasts and has a bad time she will be even more resistant to Yom Kippur, and that is far worse. I am bt and although as a teenager I tried hard to fast on yk, I often could not manage it. Rather suggest that she concentrate on eating for sustenance rather than pleasure.

Eta in response to a comment above many people hold that eating in shiurim is not relevant for 9 Av, only YK, so I wouldn't go there because it seems very nitpicky.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:18 am
amother wrote:
This may not be a popular opinion but if she needs to be talked into it even though she understands, it's time to back off. She knows it's important and she knows it's important to you. Back off and let her make her own decision. She needs to own it. (Because this year is a nidcha it's really less of an issue, but even if it weren't I would still say the same thing.) What you're encountering is counterwill. Pushing harder is only going to make her push back harder. It's hard but you should let it go.

This was my first thought also. I don't like the idea of forcing religion on people, whether they be little people, teen people, or adult people. Whether or not she fasts should be between her and God. If you see she is not fasting you can set limits and guidelines, but those should only be addressed IF she's not fasting. Just because she's not fasting doesn't me she can have a n ice cream party, ya know?
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:22 am
Another thing, you should try to find out why she doesn't want to fast, not to convince her that she's wrong but to empathize with her. If she does tell you just listen and empathize and leave it at that.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:24 am
Thanks, I'm starting to calm down now. I wasn't raised religious, so I was wondering if I had failed to give over important lessons to her or something.

DH's kids always fasted perfectly (according to him), so he's not being very supportive around this.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:26 am
Also in my view there is absolutely no equivalence between staying off a computer for 25 hours and not eating it drinking for 25 hours. Even now I don't always fast 9 Av , and if someone told me I absolutely HAD to it wound turn me off a lot of other things.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:35 am
amother wrote:
Also in my view there is absolutely no equivalence between staying off a computer for 25 hours and not eating it drinking for 25 hours.

This. I can stay off my computer for a 2- or 3-day Yom Tov/Shabbat combo. I'd have a hard time fasting for 2-3 days!

Going without water for 25 hours is very difficult for me.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 4:49 am
imasinger wrote:
Hugs, it's not easy. Has she fasted before?

- Teach her about shiurim. Learn the relevant halacha together. Help her prepare by setting aside pre measured portions, and giving her a timer.




Not so relevant to OPs issue, but just wanted to put the halacha straight - there's no relevance to shiurim on 9 Av. Only on Yom Kippur, when fasting is mide'oraita - so eating in shiurim, means you're only 'over' on a miderabanan.
But on a fast that is miderabanan anyways, there's no thing about eating in shirim. You either fast or don't fast.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 5:06 am
Thanks for the correction about shiurim. Good to know.
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MyUsername




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 5:19 am
I was like that as a teenager too. I am really not a great faster. But, I would just complain and complain before, but still fast the whole time (and complain the whole time too), mainly because I dreaded and worried about how bad I would feel. Your daughter is probably worried about it - try to reassure her that feeling a little bad when you are fasting is normal and very annoying, making sure that you also explain to her what 'symptoms' would mean that she can break her fast (ask a rav if you want to be sure). Having this knowledge as a teen helped reduce my worry about fasting, because I knew that I didn't have to fast until I passed out and that if I really felt bad then I could stop and I had enough halachic information to decide for myself when I felt too bad - but I never did. I think that showing her that it's not do or die will calm her a bit.

And sympathy helps too. Lots of things in Judaism are not easy and everyone has different things that are difficult for them - fasting is right at the top of my list (for other people, it could be tzniut, or shabbat, or covering your hair, or kosher, or lashon hara, or anything). This might be a the top of your daughter's list and that's totally okay. Don't try to make it nice or give it meaning if you think that won't help her (it usually just made me mad) - what helped me (though not for everyone) was to just explain to her that it's part of what we do as religious Jews, and sometimes we just have to do things that are hard because we are committed to being religious. If you don't think that approach will help, just leave out the explanations and tell her we can't always know the reasons for things.

Also, you can try to get something called 'kali-tsom', which is an herbal supplement that many people in Israel take before the fast (sold at most drugstores). My cousin always felt sick when fasting as a teen, and started to take it for tisha b'av and yom kippur and it really helped him. I know many people who say they feel better when they take it before a fast. And if your daughter knows she is taking something beforehand that will help her during the fast, she might feel better about it emotionally too.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 5:36 am
amother wrote:
This may not be a popular opinion but if she needs to be talked into it even though she understands, it's time to back off. She knows it's important and she knows it's important to you. Back off and let her make her own decision. She needs to own it. (Because this year is a nidcha it's really less of an issue, but even if it weren't I would still say the same thing.) What you're encountering is counterwill. Pushing harder is only going to make her push back harder. It's hard but you should let it go.
I

I agree with this post. Don't push her, but I would set some ground rules.
1. A decent time to fast until (maybe 11am, maybe1pm)
2. Pre designated (by her) things she will eat. No fun foods, no pizza, ice cream, candy, sweets, until after the fast is done.
For example plain cereal and milk, just bread, hard boil egg.
3. She can't eat in front of others.
If she's still resistant I would let it go completely, that's just me though.
If you decide to ask a Rav, make sure to ask someone that deals with teens, like Rabbi Brezek (I think that's his name) from the Yated. I think you can email him, but do it early enough so that you can receive an answer.
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UnFarvosNischt




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 5:44 am
I would also suggest to back off if she seems really against the whole idea.

But if it's just because she finds it really hard, maybe empathize the maximum, ask her what does she want to eat before the fast begins, tell her that on the day of the fast she can wake up at anytime she wants (even after chatzos so it's already one thing solved Smile ) and then plan some movies to see till the end / or till she can make it, maybe shoah related so it's still in tisha beat spirit.

Also, I don't know if she is the type but I love/d baking on days of fast (even when I was a teen), so maybe she can make cookies on the afternoon etc.

The main thing is to tell her she is not the only one to hate fasting, we are supposed to hate such days! Bzh soon we won't have to fast anymore and we'll be all in yerushalaim with Mashiach Smile
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 6:07 am
actually was always told by my rav to drink/eat with 'shiurim' on tisha b'av as well ... but maybe that is if one is trying to fast and cannot otherwise make it ... maybe it's different if one has to eat [sick/pregnant] and/or will be eating anyways

as for a good time to fast chatzos is usually considered a goal ... midday is different based on time zones and seasons

I.e. in cleveland today it's 1:31 pm, brooklyn 1:01 pm, seattle 1:14 pm, jerusalem 12:44pm etc [check myzemanim.com]

how to encourage a young smart girl ... I would use distractions: daven a little, say a perek of tehillim, read Aicha, movies with stories/interview of the holocaust - feivel goes west - games - I love the idea of tzedaka paid by each hour of fasting going to hungry people ... sleeping works especially toward the end

either way - if she does eat - make sure it's not in front of fasting people nor smelly foods that titillate the taste buds

good luck !!!
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 6:20 am
As a parent with a SN child with impulsivity, I DO think not using the computer on Shabbos connects to not eating on a fast day. It shows they are capable of controlling the impulse for religious reasons.

I would talk to your rav, especially since this year is a nidche. Maybe going in with a goal of chatzos will make it feel less daunting. And if she is empathic, yes, being involved in a relaxed chesed project is useful. Finally, use the computer. Give her extra time to either view videos that are related or just to do whatever.

Warning- for very empathetic people, tisha bav can sometimes feel like an emotional overload. The required constant focus on the issue of the day may be more of an issue than anything else.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 7:49 am
animeme wrote:

Warning- for very empathetic people, tisha bav can sometimes feel like an emotional overload. The required constant focus on the issue of the day may be more of an issue than anything else.


This is a great point. DD has a lot of anxiety, and I think that is a big part of why she is so resistant. She is very emotional, and easily influenced by input.

In addition, her fear of discomfort is always way out of proportion to the actual discomfort. We go through the same thing with doctor visits, too.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2016, 8:40 am
this year is nidcha. Ask a rav but my guess is that she doesn't have to fast at least not past chatzos. Tell her she can do whatever she wants this Tisha bav but she should start thinking about Yom Kippur and prepare to fast because there is no choice about Yom Kippur.
Btw Lately I am really not fasting easy. I don't think I will fast past chatzos this year. I am trying to get my mood above water and not fall into depression again. But this is a different issue.
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