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Poor middle class
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Chaya123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 10 2016, 11:15 pm
Who can sympathize with me? We used to be the well off lower class where there was extra money for vacations etc now we can barely pay our basic living expenses
We lost most programs due to various factors and this causes me constant pain as were both working so hard and barely making ends meet while so many others around us barely work and have all expenses paid by Uncle Sam
Unfortunately not even option to get back our most lucrative program which was Hud so we're stuck in a real expensive house which we really can't afford and paying exorbitant rent each month
This has been going on for 2 years already but kills me again and again each time
Anyone can sympathize or relate?
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Wed, Aug 10 2016, 11:28 pm
This is the hard part. But the only way to move ahead in life and build yourself something better is to get through this hurdle. The first couple of years after weaning yourself off of government funded programs are the hardest. With time you will build yourselves up more in your careers and will feel more comfortable.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 10 2016, 11:29 pm
To clarify, because I may be reading you wrong - hud is lucrative? And while you were receiving hud, you went on vacations?
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 12:39 am
Chaya123 wrote:
Who can sympathize with me? We used to be the well off lower class where there was extra money for vacations etc now we can barely pay our basic living expenses
We lost most programs due to various factors and this causes me constant pain as were both working so hard and barely making ends meet while so many others around us barely work and have all expenses paid by Uncle Sam
Unfortunately not even option to get back our most lucrative program which was Hud so we're stuck in a real expensive house which we really can't afford and paying exorbitant rent each month
This has been going on for 2 years already but kills me again and again each time
Anyone can sympathize or relate?


I'm in same position as u. Just a few pointers:
Don't resent ppl on programs now if you were there just a short while ago and definitely don't b jealous of them! You're way better off than they are even if they come home with more money each month than you do. They're the ones who are really stuck.
Second, like pp said, it won't b like this forever. Without the crutch of programs you can now increase your income without fear of being kicked off anything and hopefully you'll b out of this hole soon.

Lastly, forgive my bluntness, but have you considered moving?
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 12:48 am
So there was extra money for vacation because you were taking advantage of programs? Why can't you find a cheaper house to rent? I hope you understand that there's people that can't work due to illness or lack of skills and people that don't have the capability to earn a lot of money and they need to rely on programs to survive. I know I wish I didn't have to rely on programs. How do you have extra money for stuff when you're on programs? I can hardly pay any of my bills, I'm not exaggerating. I live below the poverty level. it's difficult to transition into life being off programs when you're so used to getting the benefits but really, in the long run you're better off earning too much to be in programs. It's a blessing not a curse.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 1:18 am
We're considered the "upper class" based on income, and don't have any money for vacations this year either. Obviously we don't get any programs. We're also taxed at a higher rate and phased out of tax credits. We live in a tiny house that's 100 years old. Childcare is astronomical because we work such long hours. Schools see our tax returns and demand full tuition. After tightly budgeting, we are still running a $600 per month deficit this school year.

That's life when you're an orthodox jewish tuition paying family, working hard and barely making ends meet. The struggle doesn't really end, as once you make more, schools want more, the government takes more, etc.

The best thing you can do is try to lower your expenses but also work on changing your mindset. Your post is filled with negativity. The fact that your financial situation is causing you constant pain is alarming. Your writing exudes envy, which is not good for you either. Paying your mortgage "kills" you. Of all the factors that challenge you in life, you'd be surprised how much of an impact negative thoughts have.

Try not to look at what others do and have, and be thankful for your own position. It could always be a lot worse. And embrace the struggle. As a Torah observant Jew, life is more expensive. Be proud that you are living your life honestly and working hard to support your family's lifestyle.

A final thought, if you want to increase your earnings, perhaps look into going (back) to school?

But yeah, life is a struggle for pretty much everyone but the top 1%. The sooner you embrace that reality, the easier the daily grind will become.
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 9:06 am
amother wrote:
So there was extra money for vacation because you were taking advantage of programs? Why can't you find a cheaper house to rent? I hope you understand that there's people that can't work due to illness or lack of skills and people that don't have the capability to earn a lot of money and they need to rely on programs to survive. I know I wish I didn't have to rely on programs. How do you have extra money for stuff when you're on programs?.


I never participate in these threads about 'people abusing the programs to live large' because they aaalll go the same way and everyone just says the same thing, but I always see some variation of this comment and I don't understand it.

Say a family with 4 kids, making 40K a year. That's pretty much automatically tax free after exemptions and deductions. Mom is home with the 2 youngest, and they pay little tuition for the 2 older ones. They qualify for medicaid (for a family of that size, worth 1000 a month easy. And really it's worth more than that because any insurance that family would be able to afford on the marketplace would likely have a a high deductible and high copays), food stamps (say 850 a month), and housing assistance (say another 1000 a month), and probably WIC too. All of that is tax free, vs if you had another job that paid 35,000 (which is essentially what those benefits all together are worth), you'd be taxed on it, plus lose out on your earned income tax credit, plus you'd be expected to pay more tuition.

So if you're a family like that, and you are able to score hand me down clothes, drive a reliable used car, and live frugally, why would it really be so hard to imagine squirreling away $200 a month for a vacation, vs no programs at all? Does that mean they're doing something wrong? Does accepting programs mean you are required to have ZERO discretionary income? Of course for many, qualifying means you have none; that's why the programs exist. But if the scenario above holds true (and maybe I'm totally wrong - I'm no expert), wouldn't it make sense that programs would actually give them a more comfortable lifestyle than a significantly higher income?
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 9:28 am
Chaya123 wrote:
Who can sympathize with me? We used to be the well off lower class where there was extra money for vacations etc now we can barely pay our basic living expenses
We lost most programs due to various factors and this causes me constant pain as were both working so hard and barely making ends meet while so many others around us barely work and have all expenses paid by Uncle Sam
Unfortunately not even option to get back our most lucrative program which was Hud so we're stuck in a real expensive house which we really can't afford and paying exorbitant rent each month
This has been going on for 2 years already but kills me again and again each time
Anyone can sympathize or relate?


This isn't a question of "anyone" can relate? It is a question of how many can relate. I can think of an enormous amount of people who do.Myself included.

My husband says all the time that he only works because he was burnt out in kollel but going to work remains a tremendous financial sacrifice on our part. And yes he went to college and works as a professional.

And I know people who say they would love to work but "working is a luxury that I can't afford..."
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 9:37 am
groovy1224 wrote:
I never participate in these threads about 'people abusing the programs to live large' because they aaalll go the same way and everyone just says the same thing, but I always see some variation of this comment and I don't understand it.

Say a family with 4 kids, making 40K a year. That's pretty much automatically tax free after exemptions and deductions. Mom is home with the 2 youngest, and they pay little tuition for the 2 older ones. They qualify for medicaid (for a family of that size, worth 1000 a month easy. And really it's worth more than that because any insurance that family would be able to afford on the marketplace would likely have a a high deductible and high copays), food stamps (say 850 a month), and housing assistance (say another 1000 a month), and probably WIC too. All of that is tax free, vs if you had another job that paid 35,000 (which is essentially what those benefits all together are worth), you'd be taxed on it, plus lose out on your earned income tax credit, plus you'd be expected to pay more tuition.

So if you're a family like that, and you are able to score hand me down clothes, drive a reliable used car, and live frugally, why would it really be so hard to imagine squirreling away $200 a month for a vacation, vs no programs at all? Does that mean they're doing something wrong? Does accepting programs mean you are required to have ZERO discretionary income? Of course for many, qualifying means you have none; that's why the programs exist. But if the scenario above holds true (and maybe I'm totally wrong - I'm no expert), wouldn't it make sense that programs would actually give them a more comfortable lifestyle than a significantly higher income?


I don't think anyone is expressing surprise that someone who receives significant government assistance can afford "luxuries" since they would have more disposable income than someone who makes quite a bit more but receives no government assistance. Eliminate or greatly reduce housing, food, medical and tuition expenses and it frees up a huge percentage of money as compared to people who pay full freight from first dollar earned. I remember how much money I thought I was making when I still lived at home even though my parents were taking a small amount for room and board which didn't reflect actual costs (and which were actually enforced savings for me since they just silently invested for me as they knew I would have spent anyway.😀🙄

There is something about the economic model that intrinsically seems to violate a sense of inherent fairness regardless of how one feels about the worthiness of social welfare programs or the extent of ones emotional maturity in terms of realizing life is unfair and hard and no one gets out of it alive.

Yes one can mind one's own business and not compare but it is almost impossible to not feel resentment another person who objectively works less and where the mother perhaps has the economic luxury of being a SAHM by choice who is also able to afford niceties which are when all is said and done paid for by the other person's hard earned dollars in the form of taxes

No one except a Scrooge would resent the economic situation of someone for whom economic assistance represents basic food and shelter like one of the posters. Inherently and instinctively, that is the kind of situation in which no one harbors resentment and not because one feels the "worthy" poor should suffer but beep cause it is just anomalous for someone to subsidize another person's economic needs and have the recipient be economically better off by tangible economic markers. This is putting aside intangible like self respect and teaching children values of independence etc.

I am sure posters don't spend significant times obsessing over it but I do not think a reaction of momentary resentment is evidence of emotional immaturity. Especially in terms of a reaction to the OP in which she seems to resent that she is no longer able to get a free or at least a less expensive ride and is now in the same position as regular middle class people struggling to make ends meet whose taxes are subsidizing those around her with objectively easier economic lives.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 10:38 am
Im in.

Only difference is the only benefit I ever had was medicaid for a short while. And it sucks MAJORLY that how much we pay health insurance now. But rent, food etc, always paid ourselves. We went on one vacation for the first time in 6 years a few months ago and that was a small vacation which all our friends considered "normal" and were in shock we had never done it until then. We blew our budget but it was worth it.

I once saw a chart about a "poor" person on benefits and a "rich" person who pays full tuition etc. Guess what, the poor is left with more than he started with and the rich person is in the minus. Because people think we have more but we don't really we have less.

Hugs.
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Chaya123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:04 am
Thanks for all the replies.
Yes, HUD can be very lucrative especially when not earning too much income and having more children. I was just speaking to my sister last night who has her ENTIRE monthly rent covered by HUD. How should that make me feel? I'm slaving away day in day out just to pay what she gets covered without sweat. And to top it all off, I used to have this and blame myself for losing it but that's a sep issue. How can I not be negative and sad about this?
Regarding moving, yes we have considered it many times but for various reasons, it's not really an option right now as we have nowhere else really to go.
Yes, I'm thankful I have the capability to work BH, however after working so hard for so many years, it's difficult not to feel what I have lost and what could've been mine...
And yes, I did have money for vacations while on programs, which I absolutely have none of now. As it is, I paid my children's daycamps with many head checks, while others qualify for CHS and get it for free, here we go again...
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The Happy Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:14 am
groovy1224 wrote:
I never participate in these threads about 'people abusing the programs to live large' because they aaalll go the same way and everyone just says the same thing, but I always see some variation of this comment and I don't understand it.

Say a family with 4 kids, making 40K a year. That's pretty much automatically tax free after exemptions and deductions. Mom is home with the 2 youngest, and they pay little tuition for the 2 older ones. They qualify for medicaid (for a family of that size, worth 1000 a month easy. And really it's worth more than that because any insurance that family would be able to afford on the marketplace would likely have a a high deductible and high copays), food stamps (say 850 a month), and housing assistance (say another 1000 a month), and probably WIC too. All of that is tax free, vs if you had another job that paid 35,000 (which is essentially what those benefits all together are worth), you'd be taxed on it, plus lose out on your earned income tax credit, plus you'd be expected to pay more tuition.

So if you're a family like that, and you are able to score hand me down clothes, drive a reliable used car, and live frugally, why would it really be so hard to imagine squirreling away $200 a month for a vacation, vs no programs at all? Does that mean they're doing something wrong? Does accepting programs mean you are required to have ZERO discretionary income? Of course for many, qualifying means you have none; that's why the programs exist. But if the scenario above holds true (and maybe I'm totally wrong - I'm no expert), wouldn't it make sense that programs would actually give them a more comfortable lifestyle than a significantly higher income?


I think it's very easy to see how someone could legitimately have extra money when on programs but spending 2400 a year on vacations when you're not well off seems extravagant. And then to be in the position of struggling to pay bills later...
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The Happy Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:26 am
OP, I can sympathize with the fact that it is a lot harder to pay for everything yourself. We have been on some gov. programs on and off in the past and it is very hard to struggle and pay so much more for things that were once free.

But the idea of a well off lower class is mind boggling. That is called living above your means. If you have extra money that you're living so comfortably but you blow it all on vacations and living like you're well off then yeah, it's going to be really hard when you come off the programs. If you can live like you are actually lower class and save as much as possible then you could have a cushion and hopefully someday have some breathing room instead of barely making ends meet now. That's the part I can't really relate to.

I hope things turn around for you because I know financial stresses can be very hard to live with.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:36 am
Where I live to get tuition assistance they ask if you have been on any vacations. If you have, AFAIK they deduct it from what decrease you might get.
Yes, everyone can use a vacation but why should family A have to pay full tuition (and have zero left and limited savings which is crucial for emergencies) when family B pays much less and has enough to spend on vacations?

We have limited communal funds and we must support many organizations- schools, mikvah, shul, special needs programs etc. all rely on us.
there has to be a better system. Something where people pay the max they can but doesn't turn one group against each other (in discussions , I don't see people taking to the streets yet over this) and lessens resentment.
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Chaya123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:49 am
Actually I did spend many years saving while on programs and then lost it all but that's another story...
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 12:47 pm
Being on government programs, in the majority of cases, is trading long-term financial security for short-term financial security.

People on government programs often decline better job offers and don't advance in their careers. They can't be ambitious business owners because their ambition is always curtailed by needing to keep their (legal) income below a certain limit.

Everything becomes more complicated. It's harder to make money, save money and invest money.

The path to long-term financial security involves a lot of struggle, but usually you end up with a lot of payoff later on, with Hashems help.

The path to short term financial security feels really great, until the rug is pulled out from under you and you realize you actually have nothing, because your finances always depended on someone else and you never used the time or opportunity to build a life with a profitable career/business and savings/investments. The longer you stay in the hole, the deeper it gets and the harder it is to get out, even if you want to. OP, be glad you got out now.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 1:07 pm
Chaya123 wrote:
Thanks for all the replies.
Yes, HUD can be very lucrative especially when not earning too much income and having more children. I was just speaking to my sister last night who has her ENTIRE monthly rent covered by HUD. How should that make me feel? I'm slaving away day in day out just to pay what she gets covered without sweat. And to top it all off, I used to have this and blame myself for losing it but that's a sep issue. How can I not be negative and sad about this?
Regarding moving, yes we have considered it many times but for various reasons, it's not really an option right now as we have nowhere else really to go.
Yes, I'm thankful I have the capability to work BH, however after working so hard for so many years, it's difficult not to feel what I have lost and what could've been mine...
And yes, I did have money for vacations while on programs, which I absolutely have none of now. As it is, I paid my children's daycamps with many head checks, while others qualify for CHS and get it for free, here we go again...


Please listen to yourself. You are angry and sad because you no longer are receiving a free ride based on other people's money - a life by your own admission that was physically easier than working - putting aside emotional ramifications of dependence on government assistance as a life style.

However YOU BLAME YOURSELF for no longer qualifying to be on programs as if you should have done everything possible to remain eligible.

This is, to me and IMHO mind boggling and why people react with less than sympathy. I personally don't have any problems with people being lent a hand and government providing a safety net. However, there are MANY MANY people who will do anything rather than be on a program because they are proud - and certainly most people would blame themselves if they caused their family to need welfare or other government programs. To be frank, you are the first person I have ever read that blames themselves for bettering their earnings and becoming financially independent - for all the reasons expressed gp2.20.

Do you see how your use of language provides insight into your mind set which evidently does value government assistance without working as a better life style than working.
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LiLIsraeli




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 1:10 pm
Chaya123 wrote:
Actually I did spend many years saving while on programs and then lost it all but that's another story...


I find this hard to believe because as soon as you have a certain amount of assets (including savings), and it's not a very high number, you no longer qualify for programs.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 1:25 pm
LiLIsraeli wrote:
I find this hard to believe because as soon as you have a certain amount of assets (including savings), and it's not a very high number, you no longer qualify for programs.


This really depends on the state you are living in.Each state handles assets differently, be they savings, home equity, cash or material assets on hand. HUD does vary a bit state to state as well (not just regarding rental values), many states have paths to home ownership tied to their HUD benefits.
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LiLIsraeli




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 11 2016, 1:26 pm
amother wrote:
This really depends on the state you are living in.Each state handles assets differently, be they savings, home equity, cash or material assets on hand. HUD does vary a bit state to state as well (not just regarding rental values), many states have paths to home ownership tied to their HUD benefits.


I live in the same state as OP.
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