SPINOFF: poor middle class and moving to ISRAEL!? slash vent

sprayonlove

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:01 am

amother wrote:

Let me just preface this with the fact that it's not cheap to live here. Where it's cheaper In some areas, it's more expensive in other areas.

Housing - you need to put down 30 % when you purchase.
I just bought a TINY three bedroom in bet she mesh, top floor apartment for 1.36 million shekel. We needed to put down $108,000 and our mortgage will be 4200 shekel!
It's insane.
Arnona is over 750 shekel for two months where I'm living (haven't moved yet) and this is NOT included in your rent.
Appliances - you need to take out a mortgage to pay for these. It's expensive. And if you buy cheap, you need to buy new or pay for repairs within two years.
Furniture - so many people are not very smart and do not bring in beds and couches and will spend almost $2,000 on a bed that would have cost them $500 or $3,000 on a couch that they could have bought for half of that in America.
If you would want anything of quality here, then --- never mind. You can't really buy anything very well made here unless it's from someone who brought it in and is selling second hand.

Income - my husband works in tel aviv in a massive company and nets under 10k a month. It's unrealistic to say that people make 15-30k here per month. Yes, I'm sure some people do. I don't know those people.

Let's not forget travel costs if you travel to your job and you're coming home with about 9 which has to cover rent, tax, tuition, utilities, insurance, vaad bayit, food and more. You're left with nothing and if you're not smart about it, you're left with no money for food.

It's a massive transition. It's not easy on anybody. And don't fool yourself into thinking it will be better than now because it's "eretz yisrael" (insert sarcasm here)

Almost everyone I know here lives in the minus (overdraft) and lives on tashlumim (payments) -- and this is with two incomes!!

Most of my friends don't own homes here - maybe all, unless they made Aliyah and sold a house, or their parents bought them one.

Life is not easy here, and the only reason it's acceptable to be poor here, is because everyone else is in the same boat.

But it's hard.
I would think about it a lot more and maybe see why I really wanted to make this huge change in my life aside for the reasons you gave of being bored and not wanting to be middle class/poor.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
This is the most realistic and honest post I've read yet here. This is exactly what life is really like here. Sure, tuition and health insurance is dirt cheap here, but just about nothing else is. Yes, 800k isn't that bad for a house (actually apt without a yard) if you're only putting down 10%. But you have to put down 30% which is 240k. There is nothing wrong with moving to Israel if you want to move here for other reasons too, but I feel like if you move here for financial reasons you will be disappointed and find it very difficult.

grace413

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:14 am

Imamother skews lower income because most posters are young and many have DHs in kollel.

I've been in Israel a zillion years and housing was always expensive but evidently in the last few years prices have risen astronomically. Those of us who bought long ago were indeed fortunate.

5mom's post about moving to Israel to be part of Hashem's plan for the Jewish people is spot on.

I think people really have to be committed to living here to be happy in Israel.

Unfortunately, the gap between the haves and the have nots has greatly increased. The country is much more materialistic then it used to be but I think not quite to the level of certain communities in the states.

I think a physical therapist who takes private patients can do very nicely here. It's a growing field.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:43 am

I just want to clarify that there are many cities where you can get a house (either detached or attached on one side) for 2.2 M. With 4-5 bedrooms and a small yard. In some of these cities it will be under 2 million.
Off the top of my head - Afula, Hadera, Tiberias, Be'ersheva, Tzfat, Kiryat Shmona, Naa'hariya. (I haven't checked all of these places myself but I'm pretty sure I'm in the ballpark).
In yehuda and shomron the prices are even cheaper, sometimes much much cheaper.
In Rehovot (I think there is an English community there) I believe you can get a house for 2.5-3 million.
(The prices I listed are for houses in good condition. Obviously you can buy dumps in need of major renovation for less).

Tablepoetry

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:50 am

About moving because you are bored....op, only you know how bored you are and if it will solve the problem.
Sometimes people reach a stage of existential angst where they just feel something is wrong with their current situation, they just need a whole rehaul. If we are talking that kind of boredom, then a move to Israel definitely can breathe new energy into your life.

If, however, you mean boredom more in the sense of 'there is nothing to do around here', then I don't think a move will solve the problem. People here are very busy with their families and work. You probably won't find many peers willing to go out in the evenings or just hang out. It exists, but the general culture is very family focused. Sometimes olim find it hard to break into the group here, because often there is no group. (eta: people do go out a lot here - you will find Tel Aviv port teeming in the summer evenings, for example - but it's generally with their families or friends they've known since kindergarten).
I never lived in NY but during brief visits I was impressed by all the different hobby groups and clubs one can join. You don't have that here.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 1:32 am

amother wrote:

Sorry but what you described is exactly the opposite... I'm not stressed or terrified. I just know what is coming and I'm exploring my options and Israel sounds like a great one. Get a degree? I know lawyers and doctors who are struggling in NY. I'm not into the "rich" lifestyle but you can't hide away from it. Why am I even trying to prove myself. This is pathetic. And one of the posters said she lived in the gush and paid under 3m. I've seen the houses there and they are stunning. And I don't mind living in an apartment either way. If cost of an apartment or home is the biggest issue than that BH is not my issue. And yes NY is very very boring to me, I want a change. Thank you for your input though but it was actually the opposite of how I feel.

What about NY is boring and why do you think living in Israel will not be boring.
Let me tell you a secret OP Wink

:we who live here are doing the exact same things you are, taking out the trash, going food shopping, washing the floors, going to work, bathing our kids, cleaning up the spilled milk and going to shul. What about our lives is not boring? My daily life is extremely boring. I am doing the same things here in the gush yishuv that I live in as you are doing in NY and as another amother is doing in south africa and another amother is doing in panama city. Please dont think otherwise. If you do, you will be sorely disappointed if that is one of the reasons for coming here.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 1:57 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

My experience has been that olim do form groups to make up for the lack of family. I imagine it's not the same everywhere and that should be an important factor in choosing a neighborhood.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 2:11 am

amother wrote:

We have our 137sq meter, five room house on the market for 1.9m. Beautiful kitchen and 3 bathrooms including a master bedroom.

Where are the people who pay 3m?

137 sq metres is small for a house. When I was talking house prices above, I was referring more to houses in the 160-210 meter range.

And of course location is everything. There are places where a house of your description would cost more than 4 million (like Tel Aviv) and there are other places where it would be much much less than you are asking (some areas over green line, for example).

Even within each city, prices vary widely by location (is it a desirable neighbourhood? Close to schools? Quiet? Etc).

Btw you can check out the madlan site to find out how much the homes in your area have been sold for.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 6:50 am

Thanks for everyone's help

For those who think I'm not thinking realistically, I am. I'm not running to Israel to escape the financial burden of living in NY- although it does seem lile a help. my cousins who live there seem to be enjoying life and are fine financially. while my friends and family in NY even with high paying jobs are always concerned for whats nexr.

besides for what im about to write below- I asked how life is financially because I really had 0 clue what its like. but I am glad I got to see everyones numbers and how it all adds up. yes it does sound hard, since the salaries are so low, expenses can skyrocket. but to be honest, maybe its just me, I still dont think its that horrible compared to life in NY. as much as you dont want to compete with your neighbor here, thats just how it is. im not into the fancy brands etc, and I just feel like ill be very much in line. everyone (most) seem to be on the same page, and just very relaxed (at least who I know, sorry if that isnt you). and even if life is hard, at least ill be in israel.

ive been to israel a lot in my life and yes life does seem more fun there. Kids are always running around in playgrounds and there's tons of bnei akiva type of things for kids that I saw when I was there for 3 years abroad. Kids here are literally zombies stuck to their phones and indoors with their computers -ok maybe your child is the special case- but I see this. And from what I see with my friends children in Israel now they're busy running around I think my kids and my self and my husband would very much enjoy being in Israel- I'm a huge supporter of the state and Aliyah has always been a dream of mine and now that I'm marrie I want my children to grow up like how my cousins and my seminary teachers and my friends teachers kids grow up- with a sense of Jewish unity and appreciation for the land of Israel. I don't even know why I need to prove this to anyone. The posters who answered in the beginning were really helpful and had me really excited to come. But of course an imamother post never can end happily and would leave a bad taste in my mouth- not that it did but some posters just sounded so negative. So I will take the advice from the first few posters and I will not be following this post anymore as most of my questions have been answered and I learned a lot. I wont be making a drastic move for at least another 2-3 years, so that gives me more than enough time to do my complete research. So thank you to all and have a nice Shabbos.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 7:07 am

grace413 wrote:

that is really so nice to hear. thanks. hopefully he can grow there as well.

SacN

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 7:38 am

We made aliyah strictly for financial reasons. My husband speaks/reads/writes fluently in Hebrew, and his fluent English was a huge asset in his field (corporate law) that enabled him to get a good job in Israel out of law school when he couldn't find absolutely anything paid in the states.
We felt forced to move, and were very very nervous, though felt that Hashem had given us an opportunity to build out lives in EY and telling us it's where we needed to be.

We came with our eyes wide open, and we are very happy. We iyH would never move back.

We are lower middle class here, just like we probably would be in the states if my husband had gotten a job. It's a different (lower) standard for what we can /can't have (a house, a car) on my husband's income, but overall our lifestyle isn't that different from what we imagine it would be there, and we feel it's worth it to live here and have had him start his career in the right foot.

Our story is unique, but it is possible... If you know the numbers and have the right expectations.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 7:40 am

SacN wrote:

that is exactly the story I like to hear. that is so beautiful and im happy youre happy!

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:23 pm

OP- you certainly don't have to prove your love of Israel to anyone. The title of the thread makes it seem like you're moving to Israel for financial reasons and I think that's what a lot of people are responding to.
I've been researching moving to Israel as it seems that that's the course dh and I will take and have spoken to many many people who made aliyah over the course of many years. There are a lot of beautiful things about Israel but the one reason someone would not move to Israel is to improve physical comfort or to improve their financial lot. Yes, it happens for some but the financial opportunities are generally more available in the US.
As someone else noted, the Israeli amothers who bought property years ago and built their lives surely struggled but they had it somewhat easier than people making Aaliyah today, due to property costs. If you move there, go in with eyes open. Be prepared to budget heavily and maybe struggle a bit financially. But if you're invested and you believe in it and love the culture, then it will be worth it.

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 12 2016, 12:58 pm

Anon because I don't want to be recognized.

We made aliyah and then yerida 15 months later about ten years ago.
My husband and I are both (state certified) school teachers with advanced degrees yet we couldn't find full time work over there that would pay the bills. We worked in education but were hired as traveling part-time teachers--we'd spend part of the day in one building, then have to head across the city (Jerusalem) to teach another class. We didn't find out that this was what they meant by "plenty of opportunities for educators" when we spoke with people advising us on making aliyah, and used a lot of our savings to get by. We tutored on the side but with a growing family, iit ultimately wasn't enough to cover all of our expenses and in the long term, would not have been financially sustainable. (We were not living a glitzy lifestyle, fwiw.)
Anyway, this is just my personal experience, but please take this advice: Try to have jobs lined up in advance. Find out as much as you can from sources other than just organizations who want you to make aliyah. Find out how much your position will pay over there and if you'll have to work additional jobs to make ends meet. Find out about childcare (if that's an issue for you.) While a lot of people don't mind being in debt, for those of us that do, not being able to make a decent salary can be very stressful.

(ETA: I have not read all three pages, so apologies if I've repeated advice already given. I'm on a tight schedule.)

Tablepoetry

Sat, Aug 13 2016, 11:28 am

amother wrote:

There are actually loads of opportunities for English teachers. They are a scarce source in much of the country. BUT...this is a huge BUT...schools are not looking for new olim usually. They want someone who can deal with the Israeli pupil mentality, someone with pretty fluent Hebrew.

chanchy123

Sat, Aug 13 2016, 1:00 pm

First, talked to DH who is a lawyer - he says there are no paralegals in Israel, but if you work in the field, what you should do is train as a lawyer in Israel - it is a pretty easy degree and maybe get a job in a law office, English would be a great asset in the field of law - but not necessarily in Yerushalyim - which has plenty of olim. From my experience male PTs are in demand and if you take private clients you can do well - working for the kupa is pretty low wages.

Second. I was born in Israel and have lived here my entire life - so has my DH. We both work, we own a home - 150+ meters - with a large yard and we drive two cars which we own (with the bank's help for one). We did make a choice to build a house in a very cheap area - but it is great for us. Again I will chime in and say Imamother is skewed financily, I think because it has a larger proportion of Chareidi posters who are mostly on the lower socio-economic scale in Israel. Would we be better off in our respective fields in the US? Probably, though.

A side note about tuition - there is a vast difference between the Chareidi posters saying they pay nothing for tution and poster who are parents of young children. DL high schools are expensive - not equivalent to tuition paid in the US, but when you convert salaries for the same position in Israel it comes up to a nice chunk of one's salary.

Most (all) people I know here budget but I would think all people should budget, it's just smart living. Most people will compare prices at the supermarket etc. I'm not saying that people don't allow themselves to buy a 20$ top or a more expensive brand of baked beans or whatever floats your boat. But that's the culture - you budget, you check prices, you make sure a purchase is worth while. I think that's normal - if there is little stress involved.

Bottom line is living in Israel is living. Sounds like this is something you want to do. Good luck. I hope it works out for you.

SacN

Sat, Aug 13 2016, 9:39 pm

I'm the wife of a lawyer from above, commenting solely on the idea that the op should get her law degree here.

My husband has a lot of opportunity as a fully bilingual lawyer in Israel, barred in Israel, however (though he didn't go to school here), he had to do a year of staj (which included very long working hours and very low salary), and sit for the Israeli bar exam, which required better than "I get by" Hebrew skills. It was not an easy path to take. And, it's not a flexible career path- in his field there are a lot of late nights and work must be done immediately, which may be difficult for a mother.
There are also lots of unemployed lawyers.

However, while there are no official paralegal positions, many law office secretary jobs are basically paralegals, and are decently paying. My husband has worked with several such secretaries and feels, in his personal experience, that there is a shortage of personable efficient people with knowledge of the field.
I'd pursue that.