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Spinoff "why do you want moshiach" -- not sure I do??
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:33 pm
In the "why do you want Moshiach?" thread, someone posted:

Quote:
So the whole world will know who the true Creator of the world. So all those of other religions will see the stupidity of their beliefs. Then true peace will reign. No more war, murder, violence. All this I want for the glory of Hashem.


My FIRST problem with this is that I don't feel threatened by the mere existence of other beliefs. There are 7 billion people on this planet, and the variety of religions is (to me) a product of humanity itself, with its kaleidoscope of inner lives. Kind of like art, I might not "get" you, but I can respect or even appreciate your perspective.

I don't think other religions are stupid, or that people who don't believe in Yiddishkeit are stupid or evil. Many people live happy, productive, GOOD lives that increase the level of goodness and happiness and love in the world.

SECOND, I doubt that without religion (or with everyone keeping a single religion), that "true peace will reign". We are HUMAN.

Which brings me to my biggest fear about Moshiach: it seems to strip us of everything that makes us fundamentally human.

So many descriptions of Zman Moshiach sound downright dystopian, with everyone being shiny happy people who do nothing but learn Torah all day. Even the rationalist approach, that Moshiach won’t be a supernatural utopia where cotton candy grows on trees (practically the way I learned about it in elementary school, along with classmates “calling dibs” on which non-Jewish janitors at school they wanted to be their personal servants. Horrible.), but just a theocracy under a king descended from Dovid HaMelech, makes me deeply uncomfortable.

This is clearly because I am utterly sunk in the Galus mindset. I guess I don't feel Hashem's pain enough, or I feel like the pain that I and other people feel is just built into the world and not necessarily unnatural, as much as it is truly painful.

So Moshiach is like death for me -- I can trust that it will be good, but I don't necessarily look forward to it.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:38 pm
You probably have not dealt with pain in this world as I have. Otherwise you would probably want moshiach.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:41 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
You probably have not dealt with pain in this world as I have. Otherwise you would probably want moshiach.
What does having dealt with pain have to do with wanting mashiach?
I have had my share of pain in this world and I am not 100% sure that I want mashiach either (I have not seen the other thread and I am not OP)
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:43 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
You probably have not dealt with pain in this world as I have. Otherwise you would probably want moshiach.


But that just seems like wish fulfillment.

I have been through hell and beyond, but this has also always bothered me.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:50 pm
[quote="amother"]In the "why do you want Moshiach?" thread, someone posted:

Quote:
So the whole world will know who the true Creator of the world. So all those of other religions will see the stupidity of their beliefs. Then true peace will reign. No more war, murder, violence. All this I want for the glory of Hashem.


My FIRST problem with this is that I don't feel threatened by the mere existence of other beliefs. There are 7 billion people on this planet, and the variety of religions is (to me) a product of humanity itself, with its kaleidoscope of inner lives. Kind of like art, I might not "get" you, but I can respect or even appreciate your perspective.

I don't think other religions are stupid, or that people who don't believe in Yiddishkeit are stupid or evil. Many people live happy, productive, GOOD lives that increase the level of goodness and happiness and love in the world.

SECOND, I doubt that without religion (or with everyone keeping a single religion), that "true peace will reign". We are HUMAN.

Which brings me to my biggest fear about Moshiach: it seems to strip us of everything that makes us fundamentally human.

So many descriptions of Zman Moshiach sound downright dystopian, with everyone being shiny happy people who do nothing but learn Torah all day. Even the rationalist approach, that Moshiach won’t be a supernatural utopia where cotton candy grows on trees (practically the way I learned about it in elementary school, along with classmates “calling dibs” on which non-Jewish janitors at school they wanted to be their personal servants. Horrible.), but just a theocracy under a king descended from Dovid HaMelech, makes me deeply uncomfortable.

This is clearly because I am utterly sunk in the Galus mindset. I guess I don't feel Hashem's pain enough, or I feel like the pain that I and other people feel is just built into the world and not necessarily unnatural, as much as it is truly painful.

So Moshiach is like death for me -- I can trust that it will be good, but I don't necessarily look forward to it.[/quote

I wrote that. I am tired of the moslems claiming they are right. I am tired of them saying they have the right to Eretz Yisrael. I am tired of them killing and raping and shedding blood like water in the name of their G-d. Yes. I want Hashem to be proclaimed the king of the world. Is that wrong?? It is not ot about calling dibs.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:54 pm
amother wrote:
What does having dealt with pain have to do with wanting mashiach?
I have had my share of pain in this world and I am not 100% sure that I want mashiach either (I have not seen the other thread and I am not OP)


I was always taught that moshiach=no more pain. That's what one has to do with the other. It's really simple.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 4:56 pm
Amother hotpink, but what if you are wrong?
We have a divisive and splintered Judaism now. Why do you think there will be peace later on?
What if a Moshiach comes, and says that other religions could be just as valid? Or that Judaism is not valid?

It's great to be sure about your beliefs, but we must realize they are not facts nor built on proofs, and therefore we can't be 100% sure of what is going to happen.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:02 pm
amother wrote:
Amother hotpink, but what if you are wrong?
We have a divisive and splintered Judaism now. Why do you think there will be peace later on?
What if a Moshiach comes, and says that other religions could be just as valid? Or that Judaism is not valid?

It's great to be sure about your beliefs, but we must realize they are not facts nor built on proofs, and therefore we can't be 100% sure of what is going to happen.


Part of being a jew is the belief that the Moshaich will be coming. May I refer you to the 13 principles of faith. AKA the Yud Gimmel Ikarim.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:04 pm
amother wrote:
Amother hotpink, but what if you are wrong?
We have a divisive and splintered Judaism now. Why do you think there will be peace later on?
What if a Moshiach comes, and says that other religions could be just as valid? Or that Judaism is not valid?

It's great to be sure about your beliefs, but we must realize they are not facts nor built on proofs, and therefore we can't be 100% sure of what is going to happen.
[quote]
Yes, they are.

This right here is why we need emunah taught as a subject in schools, the way it's taught to baalei teshuva.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:05 pm
amother wrote:
Part of being a jew is the belief that the Moshaich will be coming. May I refer you to the 13 principles of faith. AKA the Yud Gimmel Ikarim.

I don't recall saying Moshiach is not coming. I'm just pointing out that you may be surprised by what he brings. It may be something different than what you were told or what you believe. Then all those reasons why you wanted him to come will be irrelevant.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:07 pm
[quote="amother"]
Quote:

Yes, they are.

This right here is why we need emunah taught as a subject in schools, the way it's taught to baalei teshuva.

There is 100% proof that Hashem is real and thar Judaism is the only legitimate religion?

Is there also proof and facts as to exactly what will be happening after Moshiach comes?
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amother
Blush


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:08 pm
Just BTW, I do understand your question OP. The idea of a unified utopia goes against the western ideal of diversity and individual expression that we are so used to.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:09 pm
amother wrote:
There is 100% proof that Hashem is real and thar Judaism is the only legitimate religion?

Is there also proof and facts as to exactly what will be happening after Moshiach comes?


Exactly. If there was 100% proof, we wouldn't have bechirah. And that's exactly why it is brought down that we will have extremely limited bechira once Mashiach comes - because our knowledge of G-d will be so great we will practically be compelled to do as He says.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:12 pm
amother wrote:
There is 100% proof that Hashem is real and thar Judaism is the only legitimate religion?

Is there also proof and facts as to exactly what will be happening after Moshiach comes?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

The only thing we know for certain is that the world will reach its ideal, perfected state, and falsehood and confusion will fall away. Our subjective, misguided "truths", whatever they may be, will be revealed for the fallacies they are, and we will understand the ultimate truth, whatever that may be.

Isn't that something to hope for?
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:16 pm
amother wrote:
Yes to the former, no to the latter.

The only thing we know for certain is that the world will reach its ideal, perfected state, and falsehood and confusion will fall away. Our subjective, misguided "truths", whatever they may be, will be revealed for the fallacies they are, and we will understand the ultimate truth, whatever that may be.

Isn't that something to hope for?

Actually the correct answer is no to the former as well.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:27 pm
amother wrote:
Actually the correct answer is no to the former as well.

http://www.simpletoremember.co.....true/
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:28 pm
I've said this before and have no problem saying it again, under my username just as last time.

"The era of Moshiach" sounds very similar to the world of Lowry's "The Giver", Orwell's "1984", or Zamyatin's "We". Everyone thinking, feeling, speaking, and acting the same way. Everyone believing the same thing.

No more literature, which arises out of our fundamental humanness. No more humor, irony, or satire. No more diversity of views. No more kaleidoscope of cultures, religions, traditions, and perspectives. No more democracy. No more debate. No more... struggle. Yeah. Cause that's part of being human too, isn't it?

Anybody who genuinely wants to exchange the current Western system, flawed as it is, for a dictatorial absolute monarchy/theocracy, is pretty much a Stalinist. Note: I am not referring to people who are speaking from a place of pain and loss -- a place where all of us have been -- and who long for Moshiach to restore their loved ones and put an end to suffering. I am talking about people who look at all the color, beauty, weirdness, and diversity of the world -- and whose fingers itch to destroy it all.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:33 pm
sequoia wrote:
I've said this before and have no problem saying it again, under my username just as last time.

"The era of Moshiach" sounds very similar to the world of Lowry's "The Giver", Orwell's "1984", or Zamyatin's "We". Everyone thinking, feeling, speaking, and acting the same way. Everyone believing the same thing.

No more literature, which arises out of our fundamental humanness. No more humor, irony, or satire. No more diversity of views. No more kaleidoscope of cultures, religions, traditions, and perspectives. No more democracy. No more debate. No more... struggle. Yeah. Cause that's part of being human too, isn't it?

Anybody who genuinely wants to exchange the current Western system, flawed as it is, for a dictatorial absolute monarchy/theocracy, is pretty much a Stalinist. Note: I am not referring to people who are speaking from a place of pain and loss -- a place where all of us have been -- and who long for Moshiach to restore their loved ones and put an end to suffering. I am talking about people who look at all the color, beauty, weirdness, and diversity of the world -- and whose fingers itch to destroy it all.

Precisely because we are human and flawed, we don't know what perfection is. Maybe there will still be struggle. Or maybe there will be such good in the world that we will be ashamed at what we once held dear.

It's like expecting a blind man to know what the world will be like when he can see again.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:49 pm
amother wrote:
Precisely because we are human and flawed, we don't know what perfection is. Maybe there will still be struggle. Or maybe there will be such good in the world that we will be ashamed at what we once held dear.

It's like expecting a blind man to know what the world will be like when he can see again.


So if you define a blind person by her blindness, and humanity by its flaws, then a lack of flaws means we'll no longer be recognizably human.

Like sequoia said, that seems like a huge loss.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:51 pm
sequoia wrote:
I've said this before and have no problem saying it again, under my username just as last time.

"The era of Moshiach" sounds very similar to the world of Lowry's "The Giver", Orwell's "1984", or Zamyatin's "We". Everyone thinking, feeling, speaking, and acting the same way. Everyone believing the same thing.

No more literature, which arises out of our fundamental humanness. No more humor, irony, or satire. No more diversity of views. No more kaleidoscope of cultures, religions, traditions, and perspectives. No more democracy. No more debate. No more... struggle. Yeah. Cause that's part of being human too, isn't it?

Anybody who genuinely wants to exchange the current Western system, flawed as it is, for a dictatorial absolute monarchy/theocracy, is pretty much a Stalinist. Note: I am not referring to people who are speaking from a place of pain and loss -- a place where all of us have been -- and who long for Moshiach to restore their loved ones and put an end to suffering. I am talking about people who look at all the color, beauty, weirdness, and diversity of the world -- and whose fingers itch to destroy it all.


My understanding is that we won't actually be fully "human" the way we are now.

We now exist as physical beings who have a soul, but when moshiach comes, the soul will be the main part.

And maybe just as hard to fathom now, as it is to answer the question, What does the soul experience after death?
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