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-> Interesting Discussions
mommy3b2c
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 Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:07 am
| amother wrote: | | Um, all those things are straight out in the Chumash. |
It says in the Chumash that rape victims will have to marry their rape victims when moshiach comes?
Interesting.
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sequoia
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:08 am
AGAIN, that is not a universal belief about the Messianic era.
And even if it were, do you really want to replace humanity with an army of robots?
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imasoftov
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:16 am
| amother wrote: | (new poster)
I think she meant, For the people who are quoting Rambam--he said this too.
Regardless of whether he wrote the ani maamin's, he adopted them as his view that they are the basis for being a believing Jew |
Neither Rambam's own words about Techiyat Hameitim in his Mishna commentary nor the ani maamin say when it will happen.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:31 am
| mommy3b2c wrote: | It says in the Chumash that rape victims will have to marry their rape victims when moshiach comes?
Interesting. |
There is no mention of moshiach in Chumash. But it does mention that if a women doesn't cry out its not considered rape. I think it might be tsbp that says she marries him I would have to check.
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5mom
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:34 am
| amother wrote: | | But it does mention that if a women doesn't cry out its not considered rape. I think it might be tsbp that says she marries him I would have to check. |
It's a pasuk in mishpatim.
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amother
Gold
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:40 am
| mommy3b2c wrote: | It says in the Chumash that rape victims will have to marry their rape victims when moshiach comes?
Interesting. |
I'm not familiar with that pasuk but I would imagine that the point is that rapISTS will have to marry their victims, not, forcing victims to marry their aggressors!
Like, now maybe the woman will have a harder time finding a shidduch as she is not a besula, so the rapist is responsible to take care of her.
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mommy3b2c
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:53 am
| amother wrote: | | There is no mention of moshiach in Chumash. But it does mention that if a women doesn't cry out its not considered rape. I think it might be tsbp that says she marries him I would have to check. |
Irrelevant. There will be no rape in the time of mashiach. That's my point.
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amother
Gold
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:55 am
| sequoia wrote: | AGAIN, that is not a universal belief about the Messianic era.
And even if it were, do you really want to replace humanity with an army of robots? |
If it means no more pain suffering? yes
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amother
Bronze
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:03 pm
| amother wrote: | | If it means no more pain suffering? yes |
You can do that with a lobotomy. No more feelings. No more pain. Robotic.
The goal is NEVER to end pain at the expense of everything and anything.
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gp2.0
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:19 pm
I don't think individuality will disappear. I think it will just be a world with our eyes wide open, a world not limited by sickness and war and hatred and evil.
Humans will be elevated to an unbelievably high level in every way - intellectually, emotionally and spiritually. We will still each have our individual and original roles to perform in a working order - just as the malachim all have individual roles. But with our eyes wide open it will be easy to see, believe and do the right things.
As I see it, the whole point of humanity's struggle is to someday raise ourselves back to the point where we will be immortal and live in gan Eden forever, as Hashem originally intended for Adam and Chava.
Moshiach will come when all of humanity is ready - when we have erased all sickness, all war, all hatred, all evil. Those will be moshiachs times. I don't think moshiach comes and the world magically fixes itself. I think Hashem is waiting for humans to use their bechirah and make the world a better place, one choice at a time. That is when he'll send moshiach, because that is when we'll be receptive to him.
Once we have crossed every barrier and become better versions of ourselves in every way, moshiach comes to guide us further into the future and keep the utopia that we have created intact, so it never turns into a dystopia.
So my belief is that every scientist working on cures for diseases, every organization who works to raise people from poverty, every government who chooses to fight against evil, every person who works toward making the world a better place - through education, through science, through technology, through spiritual belief, through helping others, through making your life and the lives of those around you better - all of us are actively working to bring moshiach closer.
As for how we will stay individuals once all the problems are solved? How we will occupy our time? That is when we have time to focus on solely intellectual and spiritual pursuits, enjoying the wealth of information on our hands and diving into it in more and more intricate ways.
Now for my questions: do you think babies will continue to be born when moshiach comes? Will there be children? Will the children be born without knowledge as they are now? (If so, that could occupy people - educating children.) If so, I imagine humanity will expand to all the planets and all the stars and never stop growing, spreading Hashems glory into infinity.
Tldr: sci fi has all the answers. To infinity and beyond! 😉
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:23 pm
| sequoia wrote: | I've said this before and have no problem saying it again, under my username just as last time.
"The era of Moshiach" sounds very similar to the world of Lowry's "The Giver", Orwell's "1984", or Zamyatin's "We". Everyone thinking, feeling, speaking, and acting the same way. Everyone believing the same thing.
No more literature, which arises out of our fundamental humanness. No more humor, irony, or satire. No more diversity of views. No more kaleidoscope of cultures, religions, traditions, and perspectives. No more democracy. No more debate. No more... struggle. Yeah. Cause that's part of being human too, isn't it?
Anybody who genuinely wants to exchange the current Western system, flawed as it is, for a dictatorial absolute monarchy/theocracy, is pretty much a Stalinist. Note: I am not referring to people who are speaking from a place of pain and loss -- a place where all of us have been -- and who long for Moshiach to restore their loved ones and put an end to suffering. I am talking about people who look at all the color, beauty, weirdness, and diversity of the world -- and whose fingers itch to destroy it all. |
I was going to wait till a little further to comment but IIRC Rabbi Reisman has said that we will have some level of bechira, just muted because of the great clarity.
But if we think back to the generation of the midbar, and further back to the shevatim, we were never supposed to be clones. We were individuals from the start, but needed the Mishkan to camp around to channel it properly, toward one goal, of bringing the kavod Shamayim down to earth.
And re others' comments on the role of the nations of the earth, I could say one word, Aleinu. Yes, they will realize the truth of Judaism, and where their religions were flawed or worse. But they will have meaningful, happy lives after Moshiach. It'll be a happy, enjoyable and productive world for everyone.
Over Tisha B'Av I read a good part of the new book Why We Weep. I know, it should be taken in smaller doses but I only started it a week or so ago. It helps us appreciate what we miss, what Eretz Yisrael is all about, beyond the great bracha of access we got nearly 70 years ago, but on a spiritual level, and that's what we yearn for.
And much, much more than any schadenfruede over the nations realizing how wrong they were, etc., is the true joy of us getting in touch with our truest, best selves, shedding all the barriers that are keeping us from realizing our potential. (I can steer you all toward all the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation Tisha B'Av shiurim for that. Like them or leave them, the idea is this: The destruction of the BHM"K is termed grinding ground flour, I.e. Nevuchadnetzar and Titus destroyed the physical plant but the inner and true BHM"K was already gone - we'd destroyed it. So too the third BHM"K will be rebuilt after we do the hard inner work. Of course I'm not talking about myself, I'm perfect; I'm talking about the rest of youse. 
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amother
Gold
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:27 pm
| amother wrote: | You can do that with a lobotomy. No more feelings. No more pain. Robotic.
The goal is NEVER to end pain at the expense of everything and anything. |
I didn't say, "at the expense of anything and everything".
But I think when we talk about moshiach coming, at its most basic, that's what we mean: No more pain and suffering.
No more 13 year olds getting murdered in their sleep. Babies losing legs after terrorist attacks.
No more child abuse. No more estrangement and hurt and discord within families, which may be the most painful of all.
Like the pasuk says, "v'heishiv lev avos al banim...."
Why do we have to know EXACTLY what life will be like, just like we don't know EXACTLY where we go when we die?
For me, I just trust that it'll be good.
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leah233
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:28 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | It says in the Chumash that rape victims will have to marry their rape victims when moshiach comes?
Interesting. |
Only if she wants to. It is the rapist who is forced into the marriage. Not the women who was raped.
And presumably when Mosiach comes there won't be rapists anymore.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:29 pm
| greenfire wrote: | http://www.aish.com/h/9av/oal/48961756.html
cute story regarding moshiach not coming
| Code: | The traveler's sobbing was so intense that it awoke Berel the innkeeper. His wife was very nervous. "Why is our guest crying so bitterly in the middle of the night?" she asked. "Something must have happened!"
Berel entered the guestroom to find a simple Jew, dressed like a peasant, shoeless, sitting on the floor, crying bitter tears over the Jewish exile from Israel. [This man was really a pious chassidic master, traveling "incognito" to learn of the situation of the world. Every midnight (besides Shabbat and festivals) he would arise to bemoan the destruction of our Holy Temples.]
"Why are you crying?" asked Berel. "What disaster has befallen you?"
The rabbi replied simply, "I cry over our Temple's destruction, and I beseech the Almighty to bring the Messiah who will return us to the Holy Land."
Berel was relieved, "Is that it?! Then please keep your wailing down so that you don't disturb the other guests!" With that Berel returned to his bedroom and informed his wife of the cause of the disturbance.
[...]
To Berel, the rabbi's words made sense. But he still had to inform his wife.
Five minutes later, another knock. "My wife requests that you pray for the Messiah to come and take the Cossacks to the Land of Israel -- so we can stay here with our chickens!" (heard from Rabbi Yisroel Reisman) |
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This snip is from p. 2 for anyone who needs to refresh her memory.
That story isn't at all analogous yet reminds me of something I read in Why We Weep that is so simple and brilliant I feel like I must have heard this before. It is an explanation of why some in B"Y wanted to go back to Mitzrayim in the midbar. It sounds like wanting to return to Auschwitz after liberation!
But we have to remember that the country B"Y left was incredibly fertile and beautiful. And shattered after the makkos and Yam Suf. Prime time for B"Y to go back and take over. So it doesn't seem that strange.
But Rabbi Reisman had a great shiur last year: if we weren't going to get E"Y till after Mitzrayim, why all the promises to the Avos? It was so that it would be a deep, inner part of our spiritual DNA, this innate yearning for E"Y. We knew it was there for us and something to aspire to. And it took us 40 years but B"H we got there.
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sequoia
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:31 pm
| leah233 wrote: | | Only if she wants to. It is the rapist who is forced into the marriage. Not the women who was raped |
Personally, I prefer rapists to go to prison.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:32 pm
| marina wrote: | My concern about people's perception of Moshiach's era centers on theocracy. It sometimes looks like people are just wishing for a theocracy with a sanhedrin that had the power to sentence people to death for violating shabbos. And korbanos? Slaughtering animals all over the place to please our Lord?
And we've all seen how theocracies turn out. Not good. |
The Sanhedrin had the power but how often did it do it? And don't most if not all civil systems recognize the concept of the death penalty?
I haven't thought too much about korbanos. But I just reread Rav Hirsch on Pinchas, near the end of the parsha about the tamid and musaf and the way it worked, with all people wherever they were having representatives, and feeling part of something so major and big every day...pretty heady. One day I should really go see how he teitches this all up in the beginning of Vayikra.
And yesterday, on the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation video Rabbi Y.Y. Jacobson spoke about the root of malchus and Yehuda and Tamar and the greatness of each. Tamar's sensitivity in not ruining Yehuda, and Yehuda, who could have saved face by saying, I need to research this more and coming up with some psak to save her life. Instead, he said, She was right and the baby is from me. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but the father of Jewish malchus showed impeccable, essential integrity.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:38 pm
| marina wrote: | Finally, I find that prominent chassidic ideas lead to the conclusion that moshiach is not that desirable.
I cannot tell you how many times I've learned that the entire purpose of the world is to make a dira b'tachtonim, like someone upthread said, a place for God to dwell in our world. So when Moshiach comes, that mission will be done. All the nitzitzos will be revealed. Our spiritual struggles will be over. Whatever. And what will be the point of continuing the world at that point? The world will just exist without a purpose? Does not sound likely.
More likely is that when the little guy in the computer game finishes the mission, the player turns off the game and moves on. 
Just some apikorsus for your tishabav  |
And had Odom and Chava not blown it, we'd already be in yom shekulo Shabbos, as of 5776 years and a few months ago.
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leah233
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:40 pm
I see no reason to engage in apologetics for Korbons. For those who do there is a well know machlokos between the Rambam and Ramban about their purpose
Slaughtering animals all over the place to please our... is a grossly distorted depiction of what bringing Korbonos was and will be like.
Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Aug 16 2016, 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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studying_torah
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:41 pm
I didn't read thru the thread, but I have always been worried about how Tumah, Tahara and niddah will work then. It seems a lot stricter in the gemarrah.
Also, while I would love for all wars to end, and ppl to stop hurting one another, I'm not sure how this will work in practicality.
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amother
Bronze
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Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:42 pm
| amother wrote: | I didn't say, "at the expense of anything and everything".
But I think when we talk about moshiach coming, at its most basic, that's what we mean: No more pain and suffering.
No more 13 year olds getting murdered in their sleep. Babies losing legs after terrorist attacks.
No more child abuse. No more estrangement and hurt and discord within families, which may be the most painful of all.
Like the pasuk says, "v'heishiv lev avos al banim...."
Why do we have to know EXACTLY what life will be like, just like we don't know EXACTLY where we go when we die?
For me, I just trust that it'll be good. |
You're right, but losing our humanity and becoming robots to avoid pain is a hefty expense.
Actually, from what I learned, at its most basic, Mashiach means that the knowledge of Hashem will fill the whole earth and His kingdom will be complete.
The lack of pain is just an offspring of that - it is not a primary reason, and it is not the goal of Mashiach.
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