Spinoff "why do you want moshiach" -- not sure I do??

gp2.0

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 12:51 pm

I don't think we will bring karbanot when moshiach comes. Bringing karbanot was originally started because that's what the people and cultures of the time believed in - it was considered a huge ethical advance to burn herbs and animals instead of people.

Now that culture has advanced to the point where we no longer value animal sacrifices but continue to value burning sweet smelling herbs, that may be the only karbanot that are brought - or, we may no longer bring karbanot at all, as we will be elevated to such a high spiritual level that we no longer need a physical ritual (or rather, this specific physical ritual) to enhance our spirituality.

amother

Gold

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 2:46 pm

amother wrote:

You're right, but losing our humanity and becoming robots to avoid pain is a hefty expense.

Actually, from what I learned, at its most basic, Mashiach means that the knowledge of Hashem will fill the whole earth and His kingdom will be complete.

The lack of pain is just an offspring of that - it is not a primary reason, and it is not the goal of Mashiach.

Then the converse is also true--that this lack of clarity that we have now, is the cause of most of our pain.

So, when everything is crystal clear, what will we be struggling with?

bigsis144

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 3:14 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

...

So my belief is that every scientist working on cures for diseases, every organization who works to raise people from poverty, every government who chooses to fight against evil, every person who works toward making the world a better place - through education, through science, through technology, through spiritual belief, through helping others, through making your life and the lives of those around you better - all of us are actively working to bring moshiach closer.
...
As for how we will stay individuals once all the problems are solved? How we will occupy our time? That is when we have time to focus on solely intellectual and spiritual pursuits, enjoying the wealth of information on our hands and diving into it in more and more intricate ways.
...
If so, I imagine humanity will expand to all the planets and all the stars and never stop growing, spreading Hashems glory into infinity.

Tldr: sci fi has all the answers. To infinity and beyond! 😉

The Star Trek future, then Smile

A post-scarcity economy in which we use technology for exploration rather than war.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 3:33 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

The Star Trek future, then Smile

A post-scarcity economy in which we use technology for exploration rather than war.

Are you being meramez that when Moshiach comes the Kohanim will do birchas Kohanim the same way?

cbg

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 5:01 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Korbanot is a mitzvah of the Torah. The Torah will not change. The Torah is true and eternal. Perhaps certain korbanot will no longer exist, but the daily sacrifices will. What about parah adumah. Without it no one will be able to go to the Bet Hamikdash

gp2.0

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 5:35 pm

cbg wrote:

Hey, believe what you will. I can see it going either way. Personally I don't see the big deal about animal sacrifice anyway, the animal is slaughtered first and eaten afterward so it's not actually that different than our culture today. However, I'd like to see a world where we live off the land as vegans (or eat engineered food) instead of killing animals for food, so I'm keeping my options open.

Many mitzvos in the Torah will no longer apply when Moshiach comes. Any mitzvah relating to mourners. Any mitzvah relating to people who died. Any mitzvah relating to poor people.

greenfire

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 5:53 pm

maybe we'll all just go back to eating apples

marina

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 10:30 pm

Reading over these replies, it looks like many people are not missing the two botei mikdash, along with the theocracy and halachos of those days. Just looking forward to the utopia of Moshiach. Those are different.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 7:41 am

marina wrote:

Yeah, we probably skip the words "Hashiva shofteinu c'varishona" and go straight to "vehaser mimenu yagon va'anacha" too Wink

gp2.0

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 9:27 am

marina wrote:

As I recall there are differing opinions about the third Bais hamikdash. Some say we will build it, others say it will come down as fire from the heavens (fire representing pure spirituality as opposed to a physical building)...as for living with a theocracy, isn't that what we do even today?

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 11:26 am

When I think of Moshiach, I think of each and every individual person being healed/blessed/perfected in an emotional/physical/intellectual realm.

"Ve'asu li mikdash, v'shachanti beSOCHAM" You shall make for ME a dwelling place, and I shall dwell in THEM - in the hearts of each individual.

The Beis Hamikdash was a physical manifestation of the completeness of PEOPLE, individual people.

And as Pinkfridge mentioned, there was always individuality in Judasim. Avrohom found G-d through chessed, Yitzchak through strength. And the 12 Tribes each had their own paths from the beginning.

If G-d can make a blizzard cover an entire state where no 2 snowflakes are the same, He also made each and every person completely unique.

Nobody will ever become boring clones!

Picture all people standing in a circle, and G-d in its center. Everyone will always have their own unique path towards finding God, finding themselves - although everyone is traveling towards the same place.

Judaism is primarily an emotional religion. No, I didn't learn this in Bais Yaakov - I learned all the rules there. Read the beginning of Shema "And you shall LOVE your G-d with all your heart and soul and all your "meodecha" - which is explained is money, but the word is from "MEOD" as in "tov meod" = VERY. Love G-d with all your very, meaning whatever it is in life that you value most, which for many people is how they treat and spend money. It can mean children, values, etc.

All the rules are simply the stuff we have to do. The emotions are of paramount importance.

We were punished "tachas asher lo ovadita as Hashem Elokecha b'simcha...."

If the point is just to do the rules, who cares if I do them happily or begrudgingly? The point is obviously the heart, the happiness, the emotions.

Now, imagine that there was a psychologist who truly figured out human emotions, someone a million times greater than Freud whose theories are absolutely uncontested.

The same way that Einstein's equation E=MC² explains energy, mass, speed, and time, have been uncontested for a century, and nobody would dream of building new satellite system to power a new version of Waze without taking Einstein's equations into account -- in that matter, we would all revere and respect the teachings of this incredible psychologist, and know that following his teachings will lead to the ultimate emotional health.

Do I need to understand what energy is afnd how mass is created and transformed in order to build a software system for a new set of 24 satellites that will rotate the planet to help us find our way and avoid traffic to make an app superior to Waze? Not necessarily, yet I do need to understand the manifestations of E=MC² and build those rules into my system, or else my new satellite's clocks will move slower than Earth time, and everything will go haywire within a few weeks.

In the same way, it is not imperative that I understand the root of all of this Master Psychologist's rules and systems. However, if I want to lead a wholesome, happy, meaningful life, then I should follow the rules because I know that that is the path where the rules lead.

G-d created people from scratch, along with all their emotions, desires, personalities, etc. And He gave us the undisputed rule-book for leading the happiest, most joyous, most meaningful life that could exist.

Do I understand why avoiding clothing made of wool and linen makes me a better person? Of course not. In fact, it's challenging for me to see the good of many of the commandments. But that doesn't dispute my belief that they're there for peoples' good and lead to ultimate good.

That's the kind of redemption I pray for when I pray for Moshiach. Redemption of each individual, where goodness reigns and the path towards goodness is crystal clear - and that will also be manifest by a rebuilt Bais Hamikdash.

On a personal level, I seek redemption from my emotional, physical, and intellectual pain and my stumbling through gray cotton candy as I search for the right path.

On another note - imagine that you and I were living in Spain in 1492. I heard this parable from Rebbitzen Heller. We decided to escape Spain and travel to another country.

And our ship was captured by pirates, and the worst thing happened - they did not kill us, but took us prisoner.

And we lived with the pirates and birthed their children, and raised our daughters, all the while teaching our daughters that this is not how life should be, and explaining to them why we should yearn for our pre-pirate lifestyle of the past.

And our daughters grow up in the pirate's children house, and at the age of 12 are taken by pirates, and they give birth to daughters. And we explain to our granddaughters and subsequent great-granddaughters that this is so far from ideal life!

Would our great-granddaughters hear us? Of course, and they may listen to us respectfully. Yet, would they understand what we are saying and share the feelings in our hearts and our yearnings? Obviously not - all that they and their mother and grandmother have known is this existence with pirates!

And that's why it's exceedingly difficult for us to really yearn for all the technical details that will return with Moshiach's coming -- it's so incredibly distant from our consciousness and understanding.

Do I want everyone to know when I'm a niddah when Moshiach comes because I cannot participate in certain karbalos? That sounds as embarrassing as dropping the car keys to give them to my husband in front of a wedding hall, surrounded by friends and family, because I can't pass them to him.

But what if Tahara was an incredible experience - similar to the deep joy we feel upon the birth of a child combined with our wedding day and winning the lottery, along with intellectual clarity akin to borrowing the smartest brains in history?

Right now I have no specific yearning for Tahara or all that it entails because it's as foreign to me as a society in another galaxy. I can't fathom it.

sequoia

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 11:38 am

But what if they were Jewish pirates?

greenfire

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 12:00 pm

sequoia wrote:

But what if they were Jewish pirates?

ho ho ho & a bottle of rum לחיים Drunken Smile

gp2.0

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 12:35 pm

Nice post T&P!

Question: will tumah still exist when moshiach comes?

Assuming huge technological, spiritual and physical advances, it's entirely possible that tumah won't exist at all...

Next question: is it possible that at an elevated level of intelligence it won't bother women that their roles in ceremonial Judaism are so obviously inferior to men's roles? (The alternative, women being completely equal to men, seems impossible.)

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Aug 16 2016, 1:17 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I have no idea if Tumah won't exist. But if life stays the same aside from politics, women will still get their periods and people will die.

I think you're right - at that elevated level the roles will be understood to be perfect. Much the same way my elbow doesn't feel inferior to my lungs or birds don't feel inferior to fish - only different from one another and content in their role. More than content - each person would feel glorious and supremely joyous in their own role. Like every piece of a $10 trillion puzzle made of diamonds, where each piece is crucial for the whole picture.

farm

Wed, Aug 17 2016, 10:35 am

If the world will resort to Adam and Chava before sinning, the curse of niddah will no longer exist.

imasoftov

Wed, Aug 17 2016, 1:00 pm

farm wrote:

If the world will resort to Adam and Chava before sinning, the curse of niddah will no longer exist.

Hil. Melachim 12:1

"Do not presume that in the Messianic age any facet of the world's nature will change or there will be innovations in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern."

But if a woman did miraculously give birth without bleeding, wouldn't she still be t'meah? And unless there is going to be a different way of producing embryos, the act required to become pregnant would still, it seems to me, make both partners t'meim.

farm

Wed, Aug 17 2016, 1:56 pm

There can still be tuma and tahara- tumas meis, keri, etc. but according to some, just like adam will no longer struggle for bread, chava will no longer have tzaar gidul banim, which includes niddah. I'm not 2 worried about the details, I trust God to make it possible.

gp2.0

Wed, Aug 17 2016, 2:22 pm

I was under the impression that there would be no more death when moshiach comes.

Otherwise what would be the point of bringing all the people back to life?

Ooh! I have a new theory. Maybe bringing people back to life actually means we'll all be able to travel freely in time, or even experience all of time at the same time, thus eliminating the concept of death, as we can always be present at the time a person was alive.

imasoftov

Thu, Aug 18 2016, 4:18 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Techiyat Hameitim does not necessarily come immediately with Mashiach. Perhaps not even close, as Rambam writes in is Mishna commentary that Mashiach will die and be succeeded by a dynasty