can somebody who has learned a lot of Torah please explain

MitzadSheini

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 2:50 am

Not sure that this is going to come out coherently but I'm giving it a go.

Question 1

We say the ultimate goal/purpose etc is to cleave to Hashem.

This is achieved by doing His will.

If we fail to do this we are punished in the next world.

The punishment is designed to remove stains from the soul that create a blockage to Hashem.

The next world is the world of truth.

So wouldn't the soul actually CRAVE the punishments of the next world?

In this world, the more we see Hashem through our pain, the less we experience it as pain.

So in the next world, where all is revealed, is this pain experienced as pain or as the joy of cleaving to Hashem?

Question 2

And how can we better learn to crave the hardships in this world? Obviously by increasing emunah, but how does a person get to the point that each and every time Hashem throws something seemingly awful at you, you can not just accept it, but actually embrace it?

momaleh

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 3:48 am

You probably want a detailed answer, but these are complicated questions and answers. Question 1 is not such a simple formula as you write. My suggestion is to read Derech Hashem.
For number 2, this is an issue that every human being grapples with and we all sometimes, if not often, fail. The only way to begin looking at things differently is to work on yourself consistently, which for most of us means, again, reading some sort of mussar or other book with daily consistency, and you'll begin to see yourself change. The garden of emuna is a good place to get the foundations, and then choose something like mesilas yesharim and read a page or 2 every day. The newer Feldheim edition has an annual breakdown.
Good luck!

Lady Bug

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 4:01 am

A good way to look at it is to see your life as custom tailored for you. There are lessons that you need to learn and Hashem sends you life situations that help you learn these lessons. Unless you learn the lesson, you will continue to face situations with a similar pattern. So in every situation, instead of judging it as good or bad, look at it as a situation custom tailored for you to grow from.

There is no virtue in craving hardship. There is growth in happy and easy situations too. The only thing we need to crave is growth and closeness to hashem.

I don't like to contemplate punishment in the next world. I like to think that the "punishment" to cleanse our souls are simply situations in this world that give us opportunity to grow. There is no growth when there is no life, so I'm not sure what punishment would look like. Maybe the inability to be as close to our Creator as possible is punishment in and of itself?

If your ultimate goal is self improvement, and that automatically means doing Hashem's will and negating the ego, then we don't suffer. We may experience pain, since that is inevitable, but we will see how we can use the pain to grow and to do Hashem's will, and that means that the pain is an opportunity. That can help you embrace the opportunity instead of seeing it as something awful.

PinkFridge

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 11:26 am

Lady Bug wrote:

I've heard that busha and anguish from not having maximized the opportunities of this world will be so intense, of course we should want to live in a way that will help us avoid that experience. That is the kind of pain we're referring to. The way I understand it is, imagine the worst wouldacouldashoulda kicking yourself you've ever experienced and multiply it by as close to infinity as you can imagine.

Learning

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:32 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

1.It is like a son that gets punished by his father you know you deserve it but you don't enjoy it. Or like a patient going to an operation you know you need to go through it and the doctor knows what good for you but you don't crave it.
2. We are not supposed to crave hardship. We are supposed to accept it Because Hashem knows what good for us. Hashem made us in a way that we crave pleasure physical and spiritual. A person who craves hardship is sick. We are made to love what feels good in order to live happily in this world.

sushilover

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 12:21 pm

I think Pinkfridge answered the first question perfectly.

MitzadSheini wrote:

Question 2

And how can we better learn to crave the hardships in this world? Obviously by increasing emunah, but how does a person get to the point that each and every time Hashem throws something seemingly awful at you, you can not just accept it, but actually embrace it?

Craving and embracing are two different things. I have never seen a source telling us to crave hardships, but we are supposed to strive to feel happiness and thank Hashem for our struggles. We rightly davan for the hardships to end because they are bad for us physically, but we can thank Hashem for them at the same time because they are good for us spiritually.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 4:19 pm

sushilover wrote:

I think Pinkfridge answered the first question perfectly.Craving and embracing are two different things. I have never seen a source telling us to crave hardships, but we are supposed to strive to feel happiness and thank Hashem for our struggles. We rightly davan for the hardships to end because they are bad for us physically, but we can thank Hashem for them at the same time because they are good for us spiritually.

Thanks.
And is the Mesilas Yesharim that starts out by saying that life is about struggling, and growth through struggling?
Which reminds me of Dr. Twerski's mashal of the turtle and the shell, or the butterfly in its cocoon. They have to work really hard while cooped up at that stage but if someone were to have "rachmanus" on them and break their shell or cocoon prematurely, they wouldn't be strong enough for the next stage of life. Not that we can't and shouldn't daven for relief, that's a way of saying we don't know what's enough for us but You do and we truly hope we've got to that point.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 6:02 pm

Hmmmm. See I know all this. In theory.

But right now the woulda/shoulda/coulda thing is not motivating at all. It's so terrifying that it makes me just want to get back into a cocoon and NOT think and NOT connect and especially NOT do. Because I dint even know what I AM supposed to do. I understand THEORETICALLY that I'm supposed to believe that everything being thrown my way I'm capable of dealing with. But I certainly do not feel it AT ALL. And in fact if I look from a non-Torah perspective (ie w/o the theoretical idea that you can handle everything Hashem throws at you), then I feel like - no. I'm not cut out for all this.

It didn't really matter what "all this" is. We all have our version of it. I can't see how any of it is good spiritually.

Whatever.

Carry on with your day.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 6:12 pm

Learning wrote:

1.It is like a son that gets punished by his father you know you deserve it but you don't enjoy it.

Nothing personal to you Learning but I detest it when people talk like this. Sometimes fathers abuse their kids. But if the all-controlling super father is in charge, this means the abuse was deserved.

Ugh.

If that is Hashem then I want out.

But there is no out.

Like I said.... Carry on with your day.

And I'll carry on with mine.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 6:39 pm

I think I worked out what I'm trying to get from this thread. These 7 haftorahs are all very well. But what if your whole existence feels like the 3 weeks? How can you get to see the kruvim embracing each other in the middle of everything? It is possible, because I have done it. But I can't do it every time. And why is it that when I look back on that one successful time, in retrospect I'm not even sure if I was worth it?

ssspectacular

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 6:44 pm

(((HUGS)))
I get where you're coming from. I think this is the ideal situation(that we feel so strong and spiritual) but many of us are not THERE right now. Rather, we have to accept that we are in pain and it's okay. Sometimes, Hashem wants us to keep going even if we are suffering. And That is our avodah for NOW.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 7:40 pm

Therapist? Maybe.

But there are people who, at the moment they are right in the middle of a terrorist attack, experience Hashem's love. Sarah Yocheved Reigler writes about this in the book God Winked.

My life is BH not full of terrorist attacks. But still- how do you actually get to that point?

sushilover

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:13 pm

MitzadSheini wrote:

I agree that the punishing mashal doesn't sit right.
I believe it is more accurately like a father who is giving his child a shot. The pain is intense, and it's OK to cry. But a mature child will also thank her father because she knows it's for her good. If you're not the mature child yet, that's OK, as long as you still hold your Father's hand as you cry.
The limitations in this mashal is that the pain is simply a byproduct of the shot which will cure. In real life, the actual pain is part of the cure as well. Additionally, the tears and the thanks can also be part of the cure .

imalady

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:26 pm

OP, I know you are asking a serious question but I can't help laughing, no one on this forum knows a lot of torah.

But there are answers for your questions. Some of your premises are not exactly correct.

I'm a simple person, an am haaretz for real. I figure that Hashem is always good to us. I try not to think of gehinom although I surely deserve that. For now, I don't know why things happen, but they do, and so I just try to embrace whatever comes my way.

Its amazing but true. At one point I went through a period of tremendous difficulty (for me anyway) when I read that someone said she would never want to go through what she experienced during the war but she would also not give up the closeness to Hashem she gained, I totally identified with that thought.

But the other poster is right, you should learn mussar seforim, you will find them enriching.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:38 pm

Sushilover (o also n like the taste of sushi!) I like what you wrote. It's just at the exact moment of the jab (which is hours or days, not a moment) all I feel is the jab. More of a beating the a jab. And you know tomorrow there will be another and another. And as soon as you get used to this one it will get worse.