Swimming on Shabbos?? I never knew....

saw50st8

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 7:46 am

It's an AYLOR. Some permit it, some don't, despite flowerpower's obnoxious statement maligning all sorts of observant Jews who do swim on Shabbos. Hmm, I wonder which halacha that violates....

cnc

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:10 am

saw50st8 wrote:

It's an AYLOR. Some permit it, some don't, despite flowerpower's obnoxious statement maligning all sorts of observant Jews who do swim on Shabbos. Hmm, I wonder which halacha that violates....

I am assuming the she is referring to people from her circle (where it is prohibited ..).

gp2.0

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:14 am

I suspect the biggest issues are that it's not in the "spirit" of Shabbos, and that not enough people do it.

Setting up timers before Shabbos to turn on and shut off the lights is just as problematic as setting up the TV with a timer before Shabbos. But because most people use timers for lights during Shabbos and its common knowledge that people do so, it's become acceptable, while using the TV on a timer has not.

I suspect the same applies for men toiveling in the pool vs. men or women just lounging in the pool. One has become accepted practice, the other has not.

As usual, there is room for interpretation. AIUI, the rishonim and achronim couldn't agree about this either.

saw50st8

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:14 am

cnc wrote:

I am assuming the she is referring to people from her circle (where it is prohibited ..).

Even if it's prohibited in her circles, if people are aware that other rabbonim allow it, they may be willing to follow those rabbonim too.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:21 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Even if it's prohibited in her circles, if people are aware that other rabbonim allow it, they may be willing to follow those rabbonim too.

Sure, there's plenty of room to be dlkz but we don't cherry pick psakim. If they have a compelling reason to need to swim and/or look up to those rabbanim for other things, gezunteheit.

Raisin

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:24 am

Sadie wrote:

We swim on shabbos. Our rabbi said we may swim in a pool but not a natural body of water. He does the same with his family.

Why only a pool? And is one allowed to use a natural body of water as a mikva on shabbos?

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:50 am

Pool vs. River - it's in the shulchan aruch:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/di.....D=727

Sadie

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 8:51 am

Raisin wrote:

Why only a pool? And is one allowed to use a natural body of water as a mikva on shabbos?

I don't know about using it as a mikva on shabbos, but the reason I learned that a pool was allowed and a lake or ocean was forbidden, was that in a natural body of water one might be temped to build a raft.

saw50st8

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:03 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Sure, there's plenty of room to be dlkz but we don't cherry pick psakim. If they have a compelling reason to need to swim and/or look up to those rabbanim for other things, gezunteheit.

It's not necessarily cherry picking. Sometimes people use a local Rabbi when it comes to issues that affect them locally (like kashrus since you might be serving other community members) but another Rabbi for things that only affect them on a personal/hashkafic level.

Volunteer

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:07 am

Maya wrote:

Is swimming different than dipping in the mikvah, for either men or women?

I guess nobody made reed floaters in a mikva. They were used for recreational swimming, not immersion.

I have also read that in the olden days people swam nude (the bathing suit had not been invented yet). Later rabbis wondered whether swimming in clothes counts as "laundering" the clothes in the water. But it would seem to be a stretch because you're wearing a clean suit, and bit doesn't resemble laundering.

Volunteer

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:18 am

Swimming in a pool is one ,of those things that lacks a rock solid reason for prohibiting it, but just "customarily isn't done" by most observant Jews. It's like riding a bike or using an umbrella (in places where carrying is permitted). All the reasons cited for it aren't very compelling, but communities refrained because they considered it to be not in the spirit of Shabbat.

Iymnok

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:24 am

An umbrella is ohel.

greenfire

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 9:35 am

which came first the mikva or the egg ... really the thing is that there are certain actions aka malachos that are allowed mitzad a mitzva ... so it's quite hard to comprehend why the same is not allowed just stam

can one go in water for mikva - yes
it doesn't much differ from any pool of water

one should be careful with the trappings connected - aka put a fence - so what I see is once someone goes swimming they might not only ring their hair [& how is wrapping a towel any different cause the towel too rings out the hair albeit inadvertently] - they might carry to do so [barring there is no eruv] - they might put suntan lotion - and so on & so forth

then there is keeping within the honour of shabbos ... so why do it when there are 6 other days of the week that you can do it sans any of the issues that may ensue

does this also mean one cannot walk with their feet in the water ...
maybe we cannot wash our hands in the sink because we might rip a paper towel or who knows what ...
perhaps we cannot have zex on shabbos because we might want to shower, with all the impulses that come along with same

I personally think every household should turn off their phone ringer because it disturbs my shabbos menucha - to the point I am utterly shocked when in a choshuv person's house I hear a ring & some even listen to the messages with concern & not simply because they can ... nobody has yet to listen to me - so for now I do it for myself

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:00 am

saw50st8 wrote:

As I said, if they look up to those rabbanim for other things too....

debsey

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:24 am

greenfire wrote:

But you are not (I imagine) a LOR or a halachic authority! How do we make any decision such as whether or not to turn on a light, have relations on shabbos, eat chulent but not fry an egg on shabbos? We ask a rabbi, who consults with the main textual sources, and applies a ruling.

You may feel that a swimming pool is no different than a mikvah. However, the LOR of the people who don't use a swimming pool have a psak based on halacha.

In halacha in general, there's a concept that one rule overrides another. For example, the rule of going to the mikvah on time overrides the rule of not bathing on shabbos. If the overriding rule doesn't apply, then the other rule DOES apply.

It's forbidden to be mechallel shabbos, right? But if there's a danger to someone's life, all sorts of actions are permissible. If there's NO danger to life, those actions remain not permissible. To say - why can't I use a phone on shabbos if last week, I was able to in order to call Hatzalah, so it's not much different than calling my elderly aunt this week -would be fallacious thinking.

It all goes by which rule applies at which time. If you know the rule, great. If not, you ask a rabbi!

HonesttoGod

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 12:50 pm

We were told it is like riding a bike or opening an umbrella etc. We don't do it as it is not in the spirit of shabbs and there is a chance it can lead to a melacha (such as squeezing etc).

We were also told that once can relax in a pool, such as dip their feet in, just like one would relax at the beach.

perquacky

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:04 pm

"We were told it is like riding a bike or opening an umbrella etc. We don't do it as it is not in the spirit of shabbs and there is a chance it can lead to a melacha (such as squeezing etc)."

Right. Swimming isn't the issue. Toweling off is.

Marion

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:19 pm

Actually, the reason I was given for not riding a bike is that if the chain breaks (or falls off) the bike becomes muktze and you're stuck. Which is why a tricycle (which has no chain) IS permitted...

gp2.0

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:57 pm

Opening an umbrella is not permissible because of boneh - you're creating a temporary structure for yourself. There was some debate about whether or nor an umbrella could be opened before Shabbos and then used, but it wasn't allowed due to maaris ayin.

Oddly, it's permissible (though it was debated as well, and the consensus is that it's preferred to leave it slightly open before Shabbos, though not strictly necessary) to open a stroller canopy on Shabbos, because it's compared to opening a door rather than building a shelter.

sky

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 4:14 pm

(regarding the stroller canopy I was told I can only open if it was open when shabbos begun, then it can be lowered and raised. Otherwise I cannot open it. As you said...)