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DrMom

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 6:43 am

Maya wrote:

How exactly is anyone proposing to solve this "problem"? Are the parents willing to accept lesser standards of education and resources in exchange for lower tuition costs? I highly doubt that, since most parents in these kind of schools want this level of education for their children, the cutting edge technology and other resources that are offered, and the competent and excellent teachers that are hired.

So what is the solution?

I think at this point the plan is to first define -- in quantitative terms -- the current situation. Solutions can be formulated only after this critical step is complete.

DrMom

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 6:49 am

amother wrote:

Public school comes with its own host of problems.
It's social suicide to have the wrong shoes, belt, book bag, etc.
it adds up to thousands of dollars just to keep up.
Don't think it won't happen to your children if they were there.

I grew up attending public school. Some kids were into that kind of stuff, others aren't.

I wasn't really exposed to it in any real way until imamother, where there are frequent posts about:

- what bookbags are "in" (the wrong decision is apparently social suicide),
- where one can buy Venettini loafers on sale because that's all the girls in someone's DD's school wear and she can't afford it,
- what pricey baby duds are "in" for newborns (newborns!) in Lakewood, etc.

dimyona

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 6:59 am

Maya wrote:

My Chassidish grandfather attended public school in Hungary, including on Shabbos, when they would go but refrain from writing down the lessons. He wasn't the only one.

Same here. My great grandparents went to public school in Budapest, and raised a dynasty of very pious Jews. Many gedolim also went through this system.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 7:20 am

I wasn't under the impression that schools keep their tuitions a secret. It's interesting to compare numbers, but raw data doesn't take all the variables into account.

E.g. - what's the cost of living in each city? Average salaries for parents and teachers?
Does the school own its building outright or are they paying a mortgage?

The big question- what's the quality of education? That has no objective answers. How do you measure? In terms of alumni who are religious? But that's not fair to community schools that take kids from all different backgrounds.

Do you measure in terms of Ivy league acceptances? That's very important to some parents, totally irrelevant to others. Do you measure in terms of teacher qualifications? Again, some parents want their kids taught by PhDs, some don't care at all, and if anything, would prefer educators with less secular education.

Shall we say that a school is good if it has small classes? Maybe that's a function of demographics. What about selectivity? Acceptance rates and yields are used in assessing universities. Can this be used for lower schools?

I see this chart as useful in showing the range that parents can expect. Beyond that? Save it for historians. It will surely be a vital source for documenting the history of Jews in the early twenty-first century.

SRS

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 9:26 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry. There are tons of public school problems. I'm not blind to them at all. THIS is not one of the issues in your average middle income area. It just isn't. But it is an issue in yeshiva schools and programs. Sadly, keeping up even to the smallest extent is very much an experience of your average yeshiva parent (including me).

octopus

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 9:35 am

Maya wrote:

My Chassidish grandfather attended public school in Hungary, including on Shabbos, when they would go but refrain from writing down the lessons. He wasn't the only one.

I dont' think you can compare attending public school in europe and attending public school in USA. And while I can't comment about public school in europe, I sadly have experience with public school in america. I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but ALL the kids I knew growing up that went to public high school (after attending yeshiva elementary) did not stay religious.(and I'm talking about good public schools- not ones in the nyc) And their blood is on the yeshiva's hands, because these children would have attended if they were given a full scholarship.

octopus

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 9:39 am

dimyona wrote:

I wish there was more of an effort in developing those innovative programs. There are so many excellent public schools available, and if there were well run after school Talmud Torah classes, at least for young children, that would open up so many options.

It worked for our grandparents, and I'm sure there's a way to pull this off if it became socially acceptable.

\

The talmud torah classes did not work for our grandparents. A lot of kids did not remain religious anyway.If I may recall, correctly, it only went until bar-mitzvah. So Jewish education stops then???

octopus

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 9:41 am

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot is broken with our yeshivas. And when yeshivas think they are a replacement of the home, we have big problems. Historically, the center of the jewish life was the home. not the yeshiva. But please, please, don't advocate something that an older generation did, and is a broken system already. I don't think that is the way to go.

dimyona

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:14 am

octopus wrote:

No, they would continue to yeshiva for high school. It does not have to be all or nothing. Saving 8+ years of tuition would add a small fortune to many budgets.

dimyona

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:20 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Just checked the data for the school my kids attend and the data is inaccurate.

You can fix it Smile

. This is editable by anyone, I believe for this very reason.

Tel Tzion Ima

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:35 am

I went to public school K-12. I went to a really good school in a really good school district. I don't know if anything has changed in the 19 years since I graduated, but public school are (or at least were) full of drugs and relations. And I'm referring to lower middle and upper middle class kids. I don't recommend it as a place for frum kids.

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 11:34 am

Tel Tzion Ima wrote:

I also went to a public school but only high school public. I must admit, in the beginning I was scared about it. I just came from Israel and my parents couldn't afford yeshiva and so they sent me to public school. But I got to know some other jewish kids over there (we lived in a jewish community) and some were also observant. Even though public school might sound frightening, it really shouldn't be viewed like it. I think it depends also how the child is raised at home. I already had good morals and I knew now to get involved with the bad kids and do any bad stuff...I also never ate non kosher food or went to their parties. I turned out to be ok after all and now I'm sending my kids to a yeshiva only because I think that when kids are young, they can become confused and if they go to public school so young, they won't understand why they can't eat their friends' foods and do other stuff. I really don't know how long we can afford yeshivas over here. I believe that if they're raised in a good religious home, then later on I'll send them to public IF really needed and I'll continue educating them at home too. I just think that some people view public schools as the worse nightmare and it's not always the case. I knew a few jewish kids at high school and I'm still in touch. The both got married, stayed orthodox, one is a lawyer and the other is a doctor. So that's not a bad result!
On the other hand, I actually know a few people that went to yeshiva schools from K-12 and I was with them in college. They became secular and didn't observe anything like the way I do. Someone that went to a yeshiva told me he thought it was a waste of time! I'm happy my kids are right now starting yeshiva, but at the same time, I'm hoping their getting the best education because it seems like some yeshivas don't teach their students as much math & science and I don't believe you get the best teachers either. My husband works at a public school and they take teachers VERY seriously and have lots of teacher-meetings in the summer before school.

happybeingamom

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 12:04 pm

Maya wrote:

My Chassidish grandfather attended public school in Hungary, including on Shabbos, when they would go but refrain from writing down the lessons. He wasn't the only one.

I was writing about the United States I have no knowledge of Hungary Public school and their outcome before WWII.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

Actually most schools in my area don't post It. You only find out when you apply... It would save us headache, heartache and application fees if we knew the price was way above what we can ever afford. Even with a discount, some schools are just not in the ballpark financially.

malkacooks

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 1:18 pm

amother wrote:

what area do you live?

Miri1

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 2:13 pm

dimyona wrote:

Same here. My great grandparents went to public school in Budapest, and raised a dynasty of very pious Jews. Many gedolim also went through this system.

"This system" is worlds away from "that system" both in sociological terms and practical terms.

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 3:02 pm

Maya wrote:

My Chassidish grandfather attended public school in Hungary, including on Shabbos, when they would go but refrain from writing down the lessons. He wasn't the only one.

So did my grandfather (in the town of Satmar, no less). But they also attended Talmud Torah for a good portion of the day.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 3:58 pm

This is insane. I live in KGH, pay a fortune for a 2 bedroom apt and babysitter so that we can work. I see Yeshiva Ktana wants 11k+ 2000 building fund+ even more close to 1k for assoted fees. where the heck do we come up with that? we are trying to save for a house and have no help. we net anywhere fro 6-9k depending on month there is no way I can afford to pay this plus another 1500 for summer. No way. I bet it is because all the non working people get major breaks. Its so unfair. 2000 in building funds???

dimyona

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 4:19 pm

Chayalle wrote:

So did my grandfather (in the town of Satmar, no less). But they also attended Talmud Torah for a good portion of the day.

That's exactly what's being suggested here; a Talmud Torah program that could work with public school to provide a Jewish education for frum kids. Basically, it just means utilizing an already developed infrastructure for secular studies. If enough frum people would send there, the cultural and sociological fears would be significantly mitigated.

amother

Linen

Thu, Sep 08 2016, 4:48 pm

a charter school would fit some posters recommendation for sending to public school. This isn'y a new concept. A jewish charter school is paid for by the government but you can't teach judaic studies, prayer... all that has to be done separately but you won't have to pay for the secular subjects. I've heard rabbis aren't a fan but I've honestly never discussed it with any of them. Its no longer such an issue for me because I live in a place that has vouchers.

http://kosheronabudget.com/my-.....ool/- if you scroll down through the comments one person discusses charter schools.

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