How are capons kosher ?

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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greenfire

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 6:34 pm

from what I've learned a shected animal is not allowed to have any מום ... so how is a castrated rooster not one big blemish & how could they ever be kosher ?

cookiewriter

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 7:06 pm

Whoever said Capons are castrated roosters
I thought they were the thigh and drumsticks buy with the bones removed

ra_mom

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 7:18 pm

Greenie, real capons are castrated roosters, as you said, which we don't each of course.

But in the "frum" world, "capons" refer to deboned chicken legs, with the skin still intact. So it's like a dark meat chicken cutlet, with skin on top. Many lay it skin side down, create a log shape of filling down the middle, then roll it the way they would any stuffed cutlet. The skin is on top when baking, the meat is dark, and it's just a juicy chicken dish.

I don't know who came up with this "creative" name for dark chicken cutlets Mr. Green

, but it seems the name is here to stay. All the butchers around here label their dark cutlets this way and the caterers put it on their menus.

Seas

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 8:28 pm

You're confusing מום with טריפה. The former is any kind of blemish, and it only renders an animal posul as a korban (BTW chickens are anyway not acceptable as korbanos); the latter means an illness/wound so severe the animal couldn't survive another 12 months, and that renders any animal traif.

Neutering an animal makes it posul for a korban but still perfectly kosher for the Shabbos table.

allthingsblue

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 9:09 pm

What ra_mom said.
Another funny thing found in some communities is calling the appetizer an "entree."

yogabird

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 9:23 pm

in our butcher they're labeled K-pons.

alef12

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 9:49 pm

They're not actually capons. A capon is a castrated male bird who therefore grows much bigger than he would have. Like the size of a small turkey. They are no longer as popular as they were in the past since turkey became more popular to serve when one wants a large bird on the table.
What kosher butchers seem to refer to as capons in my experience, are deboned chicken "bottoms" (thigh and leg) they are in no way actual capons.

Warning, geek talk ahead....

I don't think actual capons are sold commercially any more. Caponization is still carried out on very small farms and by people who raise chickens for their own personal meat as a way for their excess males to be useful. As once they reach s-xual maturity the meat will not have a good flavor without caponization. Commercial meat breeds are bred to get fat very fast and are slaughtered while they are still juveniles to avoid this problem. But small farmers and hobbyists often raise heirloom breeds. Through caponization the males can grow larger before being harvested.

I don't know anything about the kashrus or halachic permissibility of caponization. We only raise our chickens for eggs. :-)

nylon

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 10:09 pm

Real capons are still sold but they are rare. I saw them in my supermarket at Xmastime (I am the kind of person who notices odd things for sale. they had fresh geese, too.) They're big, and expensive: not something you'd just buy for Sunday dinner.

I did think caponization was a kashrut issue because of the prohibition on castration.

In French, "entrée" does actually mean first course. For historical reasons, in America it's come to mean the main course, but it confuses Europeans when they see it here.

alef12

Sun, Sep 04 2016, 11:35 pm

nylon wrote:

I didn't know that they were still sold! Thanks for informing me Very Happy

I just follow chicken raising forums where folks discuss how to learn how to do it or find someone to do it for them. It seem it's become rarer and rarer lately.

greenfire

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 12:00 am

two things I've learned from watching too many cooking shows

they do indeed sell capons [which is why I wondered why on this site people eat them] ... ra_mom thanx for pointing out how they are re-named and sold in brooklyn butcher shops - it won't go on my shopping list any time soon

entree has changed meaning in america over the years because not all that long ago a fancy dinner consisted of an appetizer, an entree, the main course & then dessert ... now it seems to connote the main dish

tichellady

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 2:04 am

Real Capons can be kosher. I don't know how/why just like I don't understand how veal is kosher

Iymnok

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 3:51 am

What could be wrong with veal? There is no Halacha about the age of an animal when it's shechted. Is veal not from a young cow?

allthingsblue

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 6:54 am

Iymnok wrote:

What could be wrong with veal? There is no Halacha about the age of an animal when it's shechted. Is veal not from a young cow?

I'm pretty sure they torture the calves by keeping them confined so that they keep their whiter color.

gp2.0

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 7:57 am

Seas wrote:

Castrating an animal is a specific sin in the Torah, all kashrus issues aside.

Afaik there is no such thing as "real" capon or "real" veal in the kosher market. Just as there's no such thing as "real" filet mignon.

gp2.0

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 8:04 am

Iymnok wrote:

What could be wrong with veal? There is no Halacha about the age of an animal when it's shechted. Is veal not from a young cow?

Yep. Kosher veal is simply meat from a young cow.

https://www.growandbehold.com/.....imals

Quote:

Finally, veal your taste buds and conscience can truly enjoy. Our delicious Rose Veal comes from animals raised outdoors on pasture, with plenty of room to graze and move around. They are never forcibly confined, as is common in conventional veal. Instead, these animals nurse from their mother until 6-8 months, and then enjoy a diet of grass and locally-grown grain (including hay and haylege, fermented grain). (They are offered up to 2% of their body weight in grain per day but have access to pasture at all times.) The 500 acre farm where they are raised includes 150 acres devoted to wildlife management.

Seas

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 8:52 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Castrating an animal is a specific sin in the Torah, all kashrus issues aside.

True, but you can buy castrated animals from non Jews. There are no kashrus issues whatsoever with castration.

Veal is very young cow. If the cows are still on mother's milk and haven't been given iron supplements, their flesh is still pale.

dancingqueen

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 9:21 am

gp2.0 wrote:

I really hope this is true about kosher veal! I've had kosher capon, its like a big chicken, I didn't know its history until now, that's kind of gross.

imasoftov

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 10:13 am

gp2.0 wrote:

... there's no such thing as "real" filet mignon.

I believe that meat that has undergone nikkur is available in some places.

https://www.ou.org/torah/machs.....raim/

greenfire

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 10:56 am

imasoftov wrote:

I believe that meat that has undergone nikkur is available in some places.

https://www.ou.org/torah/machs.....raim/

neat ... something new I learned

amother

Ecru

Mon, Sep 05 2016, 12:22 pm

There definitely are kosher capons shechted today. And they are real birds, the size of small turkeys. average about 10lbs. They are actually fattier and therefore juicier. Tastier.
You can buy them whole or in parts. I have 2 bags of capon wings in my freezer right now. Got them free from my place of work. Too many feathers on them to sell. Tough to clean. But I like wings, sooo............

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