Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
Questions about religion from 13 yr old son



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother
Bronze


 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 12:30 pm
His question wasn't really specific to religion but this is what happened.....My dh was learning gemara with our son and the topic about intentionally violating the 39 melachos came up. The discussion included the punishment which is death by stoning. My son is very innocent and was having a hard time understanding this. Hashem is our father, and he loves us. Would a human father stone their child for intentionally breaking a rule?
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:05 pm
No. Well, mine would, which is why he's "abusive psycho" rather than "loving father."

Maybe tell your son it was never applied?
Back to top

trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:05 pm
Firstly understand that no one was ever put to death, realistically. Too many pre req.had to be warned in front of witnesses twice and still break it.

Second, hashem is not just our father but our king. Avinu malkeonu. A king can be fair and objective. In this case he knows that a) order must be kept b) it's ultimately for that person's best so they endure punishment here to atone for sins and can get all reward in heaven. I don't usually like this approach as it is too mussardik, but it is true. Otoh think how hashems heart must break when we do wrong. He doesn't want to punish anyone.
Back to top

ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:12 pm
OP, are you asking how people here reconcile that, or how to answer your son?

Because as to the latter, I'd say that at 13 he's old enough that it's better that he look for answers on his own. I'm not saying don't discuss it with him, but it doesn't need to be (shouldn't be) you giving him a ready-made answer, more, you share your thoughts, he shares his. Or you could direct him toward answers. Eg there are several sites with an "ask the rabbi" feature where he could get more insight.
Back to top

ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:19 pm
At least one person was put to death for breaking Shabbat. "Hamekoshesh etzim" was put to death, it's in Bamidbar.
Back to top

amother
Peach


 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:40 pm
Where are you getting that it never happened? Ish mekoshesh eitzim (and according to Rashi, the man was Zelofchad). Yes, it was RARE for capital punishment to be carried out because of all the eligibility requirements, but it did happen. The one that actually never happened was Ben sorer umoreh.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 1:56 pm
When you figure it out, let me know, lol.
Back to top

trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 2:47 pm
amother wrote:
Where are you getting that it never happened? Ish mekoshesh eitzim (and according to Rashi, the man was Zelofchad). Yes, it was RARE for capital punishment to be carried out because of all the eligibility requirements, but it did happen. The one that actually never happened was Ben sorer umoreh.


Tzelafchad actually knowingly broke Shabbos because he wanted everyone to believe in and see Moshe's authority. so it was more kiddish hashem than public transgression.

The gemara says that a Sanhedrin that executed in 70 years was a harsh sanhedrin. 70 is the gemara's term for hyperbole so that's like saying "once in a million years." yes, it happened, but not as often as reading through the punishments will have you believe.
Back to top

amother
Peach


 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 2:53 pm
trixx wrote:
Tzelafchad actually knowingly broke Shabbos because he wanted everyone to believe in and see Moshe's authority. so it was more kiddish hashem than public transgression.

The gemara says that a Sanhedrin that executed in 70 years was a harsh sanhedrin. 70 is the gemara's term for hyperbole so that's like saying "once in a million years." yes, it happened, but not as often as reading through the punishments will have you believe.

Right, but the point is that it DID happen. You can't say it didn't when it did. And even if Zelofchad had the "right" motivation, the fact remains that he was put to death for violating Shabbos. It's something that happened when the sanhedrin existed and batei din had the authority of capital punishment. The only capital situation that chazal specifically says never actually happened was Ben sorer umoreh.
Back to top

water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 3:42 pm
amother wrote:
The only capital situation that chazal specifically says never actually happened was Ben sorer umoreh.


Also a couple of other things (not Shabbos)- I've read/heard that Zaken Mamrei and Ir Hanidachat probably never happened, either. (Source- last week's Torah Tidbits on the former, less-trustworthy memory of hearing the latter.)
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 3:44 pm
When I think about the mekoshesh eitzim, I always think about the weakness of the Kuzari proof. If you had a situation where people were killed for not complying with the rules, then it doesn't really matter if they were at har sinai and got the Torah or if someone just forced them to teach their kids that under penalty of death.
Back to top

5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 5:08 pm
What a thoughtful son you have!

Sometimes you have to admit that the notion of Hashem as loving father doesn't work. Hashem sends illness and natural disasters too. What kind of loving father does that? A loving father whose ways are ultimately unknown to us.

Thirteen is old enough to understand that we don't have all the answers. I think we don't do our kids favors by giving them simplistic answers at that age.
Back to top

esther09




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 5:25 pm
Some food for thought...

A healthy father punishes his son for the son's own good (crossing the street without looking, treating others wrong, etc.) as a method of chinuch.

Hashem is not just our father like in a typical nuclear family dynamic, it is a father-child relationship to the extreme, and so the stakes and "threat" of punishment is higher. And clearly, this is a situation that warrants our attention, that requires an intense threat to make us really focus and understand the severity. And maybe that's where not knowing all the answers comes in - we don't know why this prohibition carries such a heavy punishment, maybe that's something we'll understand better after 120. It's not something your son should be scared of - it applies to someone who knowingly and purposefully violates this prohibition, not mistakenly.

...Personally I think it's more of a metaphor but I can understand why you wouldn't want to get into that with a 13 year old.
Back to top

Maybe




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 5:40 pm
That's what I call, a real thinking brain.

He should NOT feel bad to ask questions, some answers may take longer to find.

1. Show him the gemara Makos 7, an execution once in 70 years was considerd to frequent.

How realistic is the scenario of somone being warned by 2 witness do not smoke or you will be executed & instead of doing it in private, goes ahead in public ?
Back to top

imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 6:44 pm
Maybe wrote:
Show him the gemara Makos 7, an execution once in 70 years was considerd to frequent.

Rambam, Hil. Sanhedrin 14:10, says

a) once in seven (following the unattributed view in the Mishna not Rabbi Eleazar Ben Azariah who says seventy)

b) "Nevertheless, if it happens that they must execute a person every day, they do."
Back to top

tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 7:16 pm
You can tell him that Gd is not just our father but our king. It's hard to understand and he doesn't have to understand Gd, even Moshe rabbenu had a hard time comprehending Gd.
Back to top

amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2016, 9:04 pm
Klatzko is great in explaining
Back to top

shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 12 2016, 1:45 am
Any punishment - whether executed by the Sanhedrin, or when things we don't like happen to us today too, because Hashem sends us those circumstances - has to be seen in the prism of eternity. Not just the 120 years we are here.

Hashem loves every Jew and wants the best for him. Punishment by the Sanhedrin atones for the sin and so allows the person to get atonement in this world instead of the next (and so move on immediately to Gan Eden). Part of execution by the Sanhedrin included the person confessing their sin = teshuva. Teshuva doesn't work alone for some kinds of sin, but needs death too.

See here for example (scroll down for the dvar Torah that is relevant).
Back to top

amother
Ruby


 

Post Mon, Sep 12 2016, 7:53 am
Klatzko great in explaining emunah questions
Back to top
Page 1 of 1 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

Related Topics Replies Last Post
My son is infuriating and miserable to be around
by amother
28 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 3:42 pm View last post
What to write on son's rebbi thank you card??
by amother
3 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 12:16 am View last post
[ Poll ] Rashi wine for son's rebbi??
by amother
8 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 10:47 pm View last post
Gifted son and middos help
by mha3484
11 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 9:54 pm View last post
Advice for talking to son in mesivta OOT
by amother
11 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 8:29 pm View last post