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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
Dd 12 yo ds 16 yo are roughhousing. Is it tznius??
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 9:10 pm
So dd likes to play with ds in a funny way. Playing with his legs or just covering him with pillows etc. it's not all the times. Just in a funny way. The problem is when she ends up sitting on his lap. I tell her to get off. Without explanation. I need to let her know that it's not sznies ( she is sitting on his private parts Sad..
How should I do it? I know it sounds weird but she is very innocent and doesn't realize anything.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 9:23 pm
why cant you talk to both of them in a serious way. that she shouldnt be sitting on him he is over bar mitzva and she is over bas mitzva. thats what my father said. and I just followed. she needs to respect it. hes a young boy. and no she shouldnt be sitting on him. no questions asked. its wrong. she needs to know its not tznius. and why cant you tell her its not tnius?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 9:26 pm
She should not be sitting on his lap, tznius or no tznius, just basic non-annoying behavior. You don't have to put a religious spin on it. Just like you don't tickle people "for fun," you don't physically hold someone down like that.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 10:47 pm
She is just sitting on him. He doesn't really care. He is kind of protesting but in a joking way. I don't care if she kind of pulls his leg or covers him with pillows but I think it's not good for him that she sits on his lap. I cant just say to not sit on his lap without explanation.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 10:50 pm
amother wrote:
She is just sitting on him. He doesn't really care. He is kind of protesting but in a joking way. I don't care if she kind of pulls his leg or covers him with pillows but I think it's not good for him that she sits on his lap. I cant just say to not sit on his lap without explanation.

Even if you don't care, maybe he does? You think he's protesting in a joking way, but do you know if perhaps he really isn't joking?

If I were you, I'd put a stop to the entire behavior on the basis of mentschlichkeit, not tznius, but if you don't care about that, don't single out just the lap part unless you want it to become an awkward situation. I don't have any other advice.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 11:22 pm
Maya wrote:
Even if you don't care, maybe he does? You think he's protesting in a joking way, but do you know if perhaps he really isn't joking?

If I were you, I'd put a stop to the entire behavior on the basis of mentschlichkeit, not tznius, but if you don't care about that, don't single out just the lap part unless you want it to become an awkward situation. I don't have any other advice.

Do you think that any way of playing around is not good? I think sometimes he enjoys playing with her. Like when she covers him with pillows or playing with his shoe while it's on his foot. I'm not sure what to do.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 11:32 pm
amother wrote:
Do you think that any way of playing around is not good? I think sometimes he enjoys playing with her. Like when she covers him with pillows or playing with his shoe while it's on his foot. I'm not sure what to do.


Don't worry about it.
Tell them it's untznius for her to sit on his lap.
They're kids, still figuring themselves out.
So don't worry about it, but do put a stop to it.


Last edited by gold21 on Tue, Sep 13 2016, 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 13 2016, 11:33 pm
amother wrote:
Do you think that any way of playing around is not good? I think sometimes he enjoys playing with her. Like when she covers him with pillows or playing with his shoe while it's on his foot. I'm not sure what to do.

I'm not in favor of children playing in a way where they get physical with each other, and I discourage my kids from engaging in such play, even though they're much younger than your kids. Bu that's my own personal opinion, and maybe others have different suggestions.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 12:04 am
Sounds weird to me and I think they are kind of old for that sort of play, tznius or not. If she was my child, I'd tell her it's weird and to leave him alone and stop touching him.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 1:44 am
Your children are way too old for this kind of behavior. "Playing with his shoe while it's on his foot" sounds flirty and completely inappropriate.
This has nothing to do with religion.
DD, you are too old to be physical with people as a form of entertainment. (Does dd have sensory issues?)
DS, your body is your own. Please don't allow people to touch you, tickle you, cover your with pillows.
Children, if you'd like to spend some time together, here's a board game/deck of cards.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 1:54 am
It's not just about the girl's behavior. DS is 16, and old enough to know better. HE needs to be the one to put an end to it, and set boundaries. DD is still little, DS is practically a full grown man.

Why does everyone dump the tznius issues on the women? Mad Mad Mad Mad Mad
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gallie657




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 2:09 am
Don't know where your 12-year-old is on the development side, but he may be getting pleasure in an inappropriate way from that roughhousing on his lap. I have seen it on my own boys and I would suggest you put a stop to that. But please don't make your DS feel bad for it - nothing worse than associating the pleasure Hashem gave us (in order to populate the world) for it with guilt.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 2:20 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
It's not just about the girl's behavior. DS is 16, and old enough to know better. HE needs to be the one to put an end to it, and set boundaries. DD is still little, DS is practically a full grown man.

Why does everyone dump the tznius issues on the women? Mad Mad Mad Mad Mad


I didn't notice that the girl was singled out by anyone in this thread. They both need to be spoken to...
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byisrael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 8:51 am
You mentioned that she is really naive. I think its unfair to expect your kids to be super sheltered and naive and expect them to be careful about things they are clueless about. I also think that it makes tznuis into a bunch of random rules designed to make you look like an ugly nerd.

When I was 10 my mother gave me he period talk and mentioned that it is our body's way of preparing itself so that we can get pregnant.

When I was 12 my mother went thru Gila Manelsons books (Inside Outside and The Magic Touch) and used them as a springboard both to teach me about s-x and to discuss tznuis.

As a teenager although I struggled to a certain extent just like everyone else I felt like I understood why and had a much much easier time compared to my friends who saw tznuis as a bunch of random rules to keep men from looking at you.

I remember trying on a tight short dress that really emphasized my cleavage in 10th grade and all my friends where raving how awesome I looked and what popped into my head was Gila manelsons piece from Inside Outside about how by not looking awesome and s-xy in that dressing I was helping some older women's husband keep his eyes on her.

I put it back and got a beautiful dress for a LOT more expensive (and it was my own money) and I felt so good about myself.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 9:19 am
rough housing is usually a fun thing that you can only do with family ... they are kids

unless one of them doesn't like it - please don't make them feel like sister & brother can't touch each other ...

minds don't turn zexual unless someone creates that for them:

don't touch your brother, why not, because boys have erections ~ gosharuni
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 9:30 am
Does your DS feel like he's able/allowed to set boundaries with his sister, or does everything get brushed off as "she's the baby, she doesn't mean any harm"? I agree with Maya as far as making sure he's really ok with her behavior towards him.

Otherwise, the lap-sitting is the only thing that sounds untzanua to me between brother and sister of those ages. I'm assuming the shoe thing is along the lines of untying his laces or tying them together which is more immature than untzanua.
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byisrael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 9:31 am
I actually think you should't say anything about the roughhousing to your daughter. Mention to your son privately that its inappropriate (he's 16 he gets why)

If you educate her and he stops going along with it will stop.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 9:41 am
I may be in the minority here, but I think you are making much too big a deal out of this. So they are rough housing. So what? Siblings do that. So she is sitting on his lap. So what? She isnt thinking about what she is sitting on, just his lap.
Maybe Im just coming from a different starting point, but I really dont think this is a big deal.
And dont bring religion into their sibling playfulness. I think thats awful. And like others have said, why does the onness always have to be on the girls???/
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byisrael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 10:05 am
I see it as a boundaries issue - from the op it seems that her DD is completely naive to what consits of appropriate boundries.

IME when kids are not taught what is age appropriate behavior the are vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

Would you sit on your brothers lap?
I'm assuming not- so then why is appropriate for the 16 year old kid to have a 12 year on his lap? When does it become not ok? When he's 18 and she's 14? When he's 20 and she's 16?

Its just not age appropriate. Nothing to do with religion. But lack of education fosters this kind of naivety.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:07 am
byisrael wrote:
I actually think you should't say anything about the roughhousing to your daughter. Mention to your son privately that its inappropriate (he's 16 he gets why)

If you educate her and he stops going along with it will stop.

Op here.
It might be a good idea to tell ds that it's not tzneies for dd to sit on his lap. But I think he won't be able to completely stop it. I'm not sure what to do. I for sure don't think it is ok for her to sit on his lap. She is just being playful. She is very mature and "normal" with no issues like sensory or anything.
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