Dd 12 yo ds 16 yo are roughhousing. Is it tznius??

amother

Mustard

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:13 am

byisrael wrote:

You mentioned that she is really naive. I think its unfair to expect your kids to be super sheltered and naive and expect them to be careful about things they are clueless about. I also think that it makes tznuis into a bunch of random rules designed to make you look like an ugly nerd.

When I was 10 my mother gave me he period talk and mentioned that it is our body's way of preparing itself so that we can get pregnant.

When I was 12 my mother went thru Gila Manelsons books (Inside Outside and The Magic Touch) and used them as a springboard both to teach me about s-x and to discuss tznuis.

As a teenager although I struggled to a certain extent just like everyone else I felt like I understood why and had a much much easier time compared to my friends who saw tznuis as a bunch of random rules to keep men from looking at you.

I remember trying on a tight short dress that really emphasized my cleavage in 10th grade and all my friends where raving how awesome I looked and what popped into my head was Gila manelsons piece from Inside Outside about how by not looking awesome and s-xy in that dressing I was helping some older women's husband keep his eyes on her.

I put it back and got a beautiful dress for a LOT more expensive (and it was my own money) and I felt so good about myself.

Op here. Is the book you mentioned is appropriate for a seminary girl? I looked at it on Amazon. I'm not sure if a 12 yo sheltered girl can read it.

shaindy3

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I may be in the minority here, but I think you are making much too big a deal out of this. So they are rough housing. So what? Siblings do that. So she is sitting on his lap. So what? She isnt thinking about what she is sitting on, just his lap.
Maybe Im just coming from a different starting point, but I really dont think this is a big deal.
And dont bring religion into their sibling playfulness. I think thats awful. And like others have said, why does the onness always have to be on the girls???/

couldn't agree more. they are still young and not grown adults. I don't see this as an issue at all.

2cents

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:25 am

I don't understand why at least two posters have commented on why the "onus of tznius is on the girl", etc.

She's starting this game, and she's the one sitting on his lap. So (if op decides that it's inappropriate) she's the one who has to be told to stop.

If op's son was tickling her for too long, too close, or if he were, idk, picking her up and hugging her too close for too long, then he would be the one to be told to stop.

I don't understand why people are making a "girls are pressured and victimozed by tznius" issue when all we're doing is telling the initiator to stop.

byisrael

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:26 am

Not alone but I did it together with my mother- she gave it to me to read alone at about 16

I was a typical bais yaakov girl from one of the "best elementry schoos" in lkwd

Her friends will all be talking about the stuff mentioned in the book in 8th grade if they aren't already (if my experience is anything to go by).

I had my friends tell me such lies in 8th grade about s-x ( its so painful you need anesthesia the first time, your father has to suck you breasts before you get married, frum people do it with their clothes on and cant kiss )but because I had already spoken to my mother it was fine- I knew it wasn't true and walked away.

She did not think to enlighten me about homos-xuality so my friends taught lies me about that

sweetpotato

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 11:56 am

I don't think you at all have to talk about this with your kids in a way that implies it's s-xual or not tznius. I think you should simply say to DD that she's too old play around like that-- it's looks silly and immature and she needs to stop. And then separately, tell your son that he needs to treat his sister like her age-- they are both told old to roughhouse together like little kids and again, it looks silly and immature and he needs to behave with her in a way befitting both of their ages.

I think it's way better to phrase this as "stop behaving immaturely/like little kids" instead of implying it's not tznius or inappropriate which brings in a degree of s-xuality that is likely to humiliate both of them and be incredibly uncomfortable.

I just want to add that my husband is 14 years older than his younger sister (big age gap between her and his other siblings) and when we first got married (she was around 10) I noticed that he still treated her like a total baby. He'd chase her and say silly things to her and tease her etc. Because he really didn't grow up with her as a sibling (he was out of the house by the time she was 4), he just always thought of her as a very young child and only knew how to relate to her that way. Early on I told him that he had to start treating his sister like a real person and recognize that she's not a young child and he needs to adjust his behavior. I didn't at all imply it was in appropriate, etc.-- it was just immature and wasn't going to allow them to develop a relationship as siblings/equals as she grew older. And he appreciated my insight and acknowledged that he didn't really know how to relate to a sister and he's worked on it a lot.

gold21

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 12:42 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Nobody suggested that the onness is on the girl.

And saying "that's untznius" is just a Jewish style euphemism for "that's inappropriate". Religion isn't being brought into anything. If you prefer "that's inappropriate" to "that's untznius" then go that route, it doesn't matter.

gold21

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 12:46 pm

sweetpotato wrote:

Tznius is not only about s-xuality.

"Inappropriate" can mean a host of things- for example, I can say to my child "don't speak that way to a rabbi, it's inappropriate" and I surely wouldn't be referencing s-xuality.

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 2:21 pm

byisrael wrote:

I wouldn't assume that her friends will speak to her about these things. Mine certainly didn't!

amother

Natural

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 2:40 pm

OP, I like the way you spelled "sznies"

I think the girl is for sure unaware that sitting on his lap can be arousing. I didn't know that until I got married. I grew up in a household where teenagers of the opposite gender didnt touch at all, ever. I didn't need any explanations--I am shomer negiah with other boys, I am shomer negiah with my brothers. I am much younger than my older brothers (almost a decade) and this "rule" came from my brothers, not my parents. I would suggest your husband, not you, talk to your son about boundaries with siblings.

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 2:54 pm

amother wrote:

are u by chance not young? Because todays day and age the kids definitely discuss it from very young! My mom was shocked when I told her what we discussed as young as 11 years old..we live in a very exposed world.

I'm 25. And none of them ever spoke about it and wouldn't call them very sheltered. Definitely not in the extreme. From the way the op describes herself I really wouldn't assume these things and wouldn't see a reason for her to buy these books for her daughter. Books about changes in her body are very good. But, not these.

amother

Cyan

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 3:14 pm

12 yo sisters dont typically sit on 16 yo brothers.
For a 16 year old boy a girl sitting there on his private parts is arousing. Even if unintentional. He most likely goes with it because its pleasurable.
This is not a healthy or appropriate pastime to allow normalizing. That could lead down a road we don't want even if separately. I would definitely ask a frum professional for guidance.
A non confrontational informative quality time talk with each according to his/her level should do it.