what do you think about this?

MitzadSheini

Mon, Sep 19 2016, 10:58 pm

Mulling this thought over for the last little while, wanted to write it down.

I know the saying "you can't change anyone except yourself". Very true statement. Something you may need to learn in stages.

Anyway I think that sometimes when it comes to parenting I have forgotten that statement. Well I have remembered it actually, as it was on the front of my mind, but I wasn't sure exactly how to apply it.

So now I am thinking- THE ONLY reason a child presents with a difficult behavior is so that *I * can learn from the experience. Will I be more patient, calm, assertive, or organized? Once I have learned this lesson, the behavior is likely to change, but that is only because *I* need a different lesson now.

This is a seismic shift in my attitude, and it is making me feel like I have more power to make a choice to do that which is correct.

Wondering what others thought.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Sep 19 2016, 11:26 pm

It's a good attitude to understand your child is acting a certain way and now this is your challenge to deal with it and learn from it and ultimately, hopefully, benefit from it.

But I don't think the idea that you can't change anyone can apply to parenting. Our kids are who they are. They exhibit personalities and tendencies from birth. Doesn't mean they get to act the way they want to and we just work on ourselves and how we handle it because "we can only change ourselves." No, we have to be responsible and teach them the right way. We have to try to change them into the best versions of themselves.

chani8

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 12:10 am

I think you are on to something majorly important here, MitzadSheini.

Truly.

It's all a test for you. To help you. To improve you.

What we have to do as parents is keep our kids safe and secure and guide and teach. The main thing is helping kids understand their strengths and personality so that they can love themselves. Giving them self love.

And to do that, one needs to accept the child and his/her imperfections and not try to fix, change, manipulate, coerce or force them to change. True they need a schedule and direction. But after that, it's on them to own their own lives.

As for our control, it's all about self-control. Backing off, giving space, letting others breathe, and breathing ourselves. Letting kids be kids.

There is so much opportunity for self-improvement when you have kids. Learning to not be lazy. To be organized. To give attention when we prefer distraction. To get up and help our kids. It's constant chessed. Constant giving. And when we do it nicely, we perfect the chessed. It's a goal.

5*Mom

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 2:26 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

So now I am thinking- THE ONLY reason a child presents with a difficult behavior is so that *I * can learn from the experience.

I hear what you're trying to say, that our children's difficult behaviors are an opportunity for growth for us and our response is the only thing we have control over in a difficult-behavior situation. But the way your post is phrased, you seem to be saying that our children and their challenging behaviors exist ONLY for us and that can never be true. You can use the growth opportunities that parenting presents but you have to know that your children DO NOT exist for you.

chani8

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 2:38 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

Thank you Chani that was a nice thing to say.

See what I'm saying is that for any parenting question you flip it around. So to borrow from the other thread, you stop asking"how can I stop my kid from picking their nose", you say " my kid is picking his nose. What can I learn from this? Tolerance /patience/hygiene /organising (have more tissues available) or whatever else. As in look to YOURSELF, not the child , to find the correct answer. But this will ALSO be the correct answer for the child.

I agree with you. EXCEPT if you think that by working on yourself, it will automatically change your child. Because, you can't expect that. If you expect that, then you set yourself up for disappointment.

The reason we improve ourselves is for our benefit, and for Hashem, to please Him.

I do know the shitta that once you've improved on something, that nisayon is taken away, because you no longer need it.

However, when other people are involved in the scenario, such as our children, it's not as simple. For example, I have a special needs child, and no matter how much I work on myself to be a good mom to her, it doesn't change her special needs. Now, it does change our lives, together, to be more positive. And she lets me know all the time what a great mom I am. So there are benefits to self-improvement, but that doesn't guarantee others will improve.

My letting go of control doesn't promise me that change will occur in anyone but myself.

Or that the nisayon will even go away.

But what is for certain, is that with enough work, things that upset and bothered us, wont, anymore. And when things come up throughout raising our kids, we will know that we need to work on ourselves, and not try to change the child.

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 2:39 am

5*mom yes I see what you mean. No I don't mean that. Of course the children don't exist just for you. But all you can control is you. How you control you will affect them, obviously. But let's say you have a kid who gets very stressed very easily. And the advice you get is to stay as calm as possible and not react to the stress. Instead of saying "I have to GET HIM to stay calm", you say "this child will teach ME not to react to other people's stress. When I have learned that lesson, the child will probably be less stressed. But that is just a bonus. The real benefit is the lesson I have learned about not reacting."

Thinking this way means that you will never be thinking "oh I wish he would just stop it. Because you understand that as long as he I doing it you haven't learn the lesson.

Am I making any sense?

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 2:47 am

chani8 wrote:

....

My letting go of control doesn't promise me that change will occur in anyone but myself.

Or that the nisayon will even go away.
.

Agree with the first sentence 100%. But I would add that if you can find out what is best for your growth then that will also be the best thing for the child's growth. But by no means guarantees that the child will thereby change the way you want. But then I guess you have to come to realise you wanted the wrong thing.

I'm not sure what I think about the second sentence. I would have thought when you pass a test it goes away. But going away could just mean "you get used to it". But anyway when you pass one test you just get a harder test anyway, so it could look like things are getting worse

chani8

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 3:55 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

To show how complicated I think this subject is, let me share this. We had a terrible mean neighbor who beat her kids making them violent little kids who used to harass my kids. Time after time the kids and even the parents would be mean to my kids. I kept telling my family, be nice, dont fight back, this is a test of our middos. So they listened to me, as upset as they all got.

Then we moved, and unbelievably, we got a terrible mean neighbor (with a nice son). I had no strength to mussar my family about being a good neighbor or being don l'kaf zchus and all that. So instead, my family got angry. The next time she yelled at us, my husband yelled back, "If you dont stop bothering us, I will call your rav." She never bothered us again.

In short, when the nisayon was passed, the problem went away.

However, what I learned from this was that working on one's self doesn't always mean being bittel. It can mean being strong. With some people, we need to bittel our will, and with others, we need to be strong.

The way we know we are on the right track, is when we try it, and it works. If we keep trying to do it one way and it doesn't work, contemplate another way. Perhaps we are misunderstanding the lessen. For in this example above, no amount of self-improvement fixed the bad neighbor problem for us. Or rather, what I thought was the nisayon was not actually the nisayon. What it turned out to be was my husband's nisayon, in that he was meant to stand up and protect the family. And I was in his way in fact. Perhaps my nisayon was to let my husband handle things instead of undermining him.

So, this topic is so very complicated. And I agree that when the test gets passed, it goes away. Determining what really is the test isn't so simple. That's all.

I sincerely think you are correct and right to pursue this path. You will see benefits to working on yourself. It helps everyone. Whenever I had problems with my kids or husband, I fixed myself. I realized it was my problem.

Almost always the answer was 'action', as in, getting off my duff and working harder to take care of everyone. Or 'action' as in running to my room to take a time-out before getting upset at others. Even with the bad neighbor, it was about 'action'...standing aside while my husband took action. When kids hurt each other, it's about action. Stopping the hurting. Etc etc.

Action relieves anxiety, they say in the 12 Step World. And I'll add, action fixes a whole lot of problems. One just needs to figure out the correct action, sometimes through trial and error.

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 4:24 am

Funny...I also had a similar experience with a "yucky neighbour". Eventually I sort of stood up to him. Now BH we have wonderful neighbours.

It used to be normal and acceptable for parents to hit their kids. They would do this to teach them something . Once they learned the lesson, they stopped hitting. (if they kept hitting just for the parent's enjoyment, that would be abuse.)

So Hashem is not an abusive parent. He stops "hitting" when you have learned the correct lesson.

Note I AM NOT ADVOCATING HITTING CHILDREN EVER. In this generation ot is totally totally wrong.

Still mulling all of this over in my mind.

imasinger

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 6:50 am

This is a knotty question. The first thing that comes to my mind is to join Chani in the 12 step world and quote the Serenity Prayer. The one that goes:

"G-d, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Most important change starts inside us, but knowing what kind of change to make and how can be extremely difficult. Sometimes, it feels like Hashem shines a beacon on a particular choice. Other times, the answer can stay hidden until we are truly ready, whatever that means.

In the meantime, we have to go on living. Deciding - will this situation benefit from firmness, or am I being overly impatient? From patience, or am I being too wishy-washy?

We also have to recognize, when it comes to our families, that the lessons are not for ourselves alone. And that makes things more complicated.

I give my kids a whole lot more choices in family life -- meal choices, a say in family decisions, etc -- than my parents ever gave me. As a result, they are not as "good" (eager to please adults) as I was.

There are times when this is a good thing, and times when this is a bad thing.

To add to the confusion, our limited vision can't always tell Hashem's potch from Hashem's longer term bracha. There are often situations when we cry out in pain, then realize how beneficial the situation was in the long term.

So, in the end, I agree that it is important to see any challenge as an opportunity for self growth. But that's only one piece of the picture, and knowing how we need to grow in each instance takes work.

Therefore, the statement, "the ONLY reason Hashem caused my child to misbehave is so that I can learn more patience" is problematic to me. What about the lessons that Hashem is teaching my child?

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 20 2016, 7:00 am

All I'm really trying to say I think is that if you can't work out what a kid needs from a situation then maybe look into what YOU need from a situation and that information may better inform you to make the correct choice.

And I agree, working out what you need is extremely difficult. I guess that's where you daven for clarity.

And then you also have to realise that the true Bracha that Hashem gives you in this case is the opportunity to daven. The clarity is of second importance, and the solution to the problem is only the third most important thing.

And OF COURSE Hashem is also teaching lessons to the child. But it I Hashem who is doing that. Not us. I mean obviously we are involved and kind of like partners with Hashem in this. But it is so easy to fall into seeing a problem with a chip ad something which you HAVE to solve. That you MUST teach them. And the thing is if they don't learn it the way you expect, then you might try and over-teach it. And that won't be good for the child. But if you can take a step back and say.... That is not good for me, then you won't do something bad for the child.

Last edited by MitzadSheini on Tue, Sep 20 2016, 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total