Desperate for effective consequence/reaction to CHUTZPAH!

amother

cornflower

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 2:34 pm

My 8 yr old son has gotten way out of control lately with the chutzpah and not listening! He's a really goo kid generally but lately his mouth is getting him in so much trouble! I send him to his room for timeout constantly, or I'll threaten that he won't have a friend over or can't play outside, then I feel terrible when I have to stick to it. None of it seems to be helping in any case!

Any ideas on how to effectively deal with this would be most welcome!! My younger son is starting to catch on 😞!

amother

Aqua

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 2:52 pm

Warning: This answer isn't going to be popular.

I'm a big believer in giving punishments that are as direct a consequence as possible to the misbehavior, and I believe that hitting a child should be reserved for very extreme cases. I have 10 children and between all my kids together, I hit maybe once a year. Maybe. That said, in my book, chutzpah would warrant an immediate potch. It's so completely unacceptable that it needs an instant sharp consequence that makes it clear that this was totally not okay and should never happen again. BH we rarely have problems with chutzpah in our house and things are generally peaceful and smooth sailing.

imasinger

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 2:59 pm

If you have a chutzpah free house, you are quite lucky.

Potching doesn't always work. It wouldn't for my family.

In general, a wise approach is to combine sympathy with detailed expectations, and insistence on correcting the offense immediately, plus praise any time things are done right.

I can give an example of how this works if anyone wants to post details of their kid's chutzpah

amother

Coffee

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:26 pm

imasinger wrote:

what do you say to your nine year old dd who thinks she is on the same level as her parents and an equal

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:36 pm

Stop calling it chutzpa, that's the first thing.

Your kids are being human. They are entitled to have opinions. Opinions are not chutzpa.

A child can complain, rant and rave, and say whatever he wants. And that is not chutzpa.

Don't stifle their voices. Because they need them.

Find every way possible to agree with your child. It's that simple.

imasinger

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:39 pm

amother wrote:

what do you say to your nine year old dd who thinks she is on the same level as her parents and an equal

So, what does she say?

(Chanie, my friend, I respectfully disagree with you.

That's the proper way to do it.

We're I to go the SNL route in their old "point counterpoint" routine, that would be chutzpah.

Yes, kids can be and often are at times chutzpadik, at least as how I define the word.

It's not an indelible character trait. It's an underdeveloped or untrained sense of how to speak respectfully to others, a bad habit.)

amother

Magenta

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:49 pm

chani8 wrote:

So when I ask my child to clean her room because it looks like a bomb went off and she says, "no".....
When I tell her it's time to do homework and she says, "no"....
When I tell her not to jump on the couch, not to leave wet towels on the floor, not to leave her dirty dishes on the table, not to leave old lunch containers in her backpack, not to hit her sister or shout in my face.... and she just carries on as she sees fit I should not call this chutzpah and respect and agree with her choices??? Um, no.

amother

Taupe

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

Potching is lazy parenting.

If an adult disagreed with you, would you even think of hitting them to make them obey you?

Hitting, slapping, any form of violence breaks personal boundaries.

Children are people too. And you shouldn't hit them, even more than you wouldn't hit adults, because they are weaker than you and more vulnerable and can't defend themselves back.

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 3:54 pm

Children not speaking correctly is not chutzpa.

I agree that people can be taught how to speak correctly.

When people are speaking from emotions, that is not the time to teach. That is the time to listen and not judge.

When we find some way to agree, it calms the person down.

BTW, I was taught by a well known and highly respected chinuch derech (years ago... Rbtz Spetner's course, I believe) that we overuse the term chutzpah. It increases parental anger to call it chutzpa.

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:00 pm

amother wrote:

I learned that we shouldn't ask our children to do things which we know they wont do.

IOW, stop with the rules and the requests and especially, the orders.

You clean her room. She doesn't have to do homework, let her teacher yell at her for that.

I'd allow jumping on the couch, but if you dont, then take her by the hand and direct her to jump on a cushion on the floor.

You pick up the wet towels, and dirty dishes, and empty her backpack.

Hitting her sister is abuse. So for that, you get in her face and say, 'no hitting. Ever.'

When your DD is 17 or 18 or 19 at the latest, if you have cared for her all these (few, short) years of childhood, she wont jump on the couch or leave her mess for you. I dont lift a finger these days and did.it.all for my kids when they were little.

amother

Pearl

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:06 pm

amother wrote:

You're right that some behaviors are unacceptable. You shouldn't have to put up with rudeness.

But you still have to create an atmosphere in which it's easier for the child to respond positively. First, what's the ratio of positive interaction to negative ones? A child who only hears do this, do that will tune you out.

Second, state your expectations clearly and calmly. We think that "put away the toys" is easy to understand. A child might need that broken down into smaller tasks

Third, a child who is hungry and tired isn't always able to cope with requests, even if they are reasonable and calmly stated. You might have to give kids a half hour to snack and generally decompress from a long day of school.

If you do have to be firm, walk over to the child, look him in the eye, and say, I would like you to do xyz before you leave the room. Again, be specific. "Clean your room because it looks like a bomb went off" is insulting and probably way too broad. Try saying that all dirty clothes go in the hamper, all clean clothes in the closet, and all dirty tissues in the garbage. (But pick your battles. Can you just shut the door to the bedroom?)

And lastly, remember that they grow up, and for the vast majority of kids, this is just a phase. They are hardwired to want to please.

amother

Magenta

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:08 pm

chani8 wrote:

Chani, if that works for you, great. I envy you a little that you can live in a home where total disrespect for parents and the home itself is totally unconcerning. I can't live like that and I don't understand why expecting children to treat both things and people (particularly parents) with respect is a bad thing.

amother

Pearl

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:12 pm

amother wrote:

That was not very kind. Chani shared what works for her family. If you don't like it, fine. But to tell her that she doesn't care about respect for the parents or the home is really harsh. No one said that respect is a bad thing. You differ with respect to enforcement.

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:21 pm

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well. My home is spotless. My kids have impeccable manners. Our home is one of chessed. I did all the work for them when they were little. And now, they do so much for our family. They are amazing adults. My husband fought me on this the whole way, but now he's as laid back as me and does whatever they ask of him. Because it works. It's not worth it to fight with your kids. And if you want love and respect, do for them as much as you can.

As for the term disrespect, it's right up there with chutzpa...terms that increase anger in parenting. Dont judge your children's tones. It takes so much for kids to get their words out. Let them get those words out however they can. Find something to agree with. Be on their side.

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:34 pm

amother wrote:

What happens when your child yells "you're so stupid cuz you made a disgusting supper and I hate it".

"I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy supper tonight.

"A nicer way to say that would have been, 'Mommy, I don't like this supper. Can you please stop making it so often?'

Now, since you are probably hungry, can I get you something else to eat?"

amother

cornflower

Sun, Sep 25 2016, 4:38 pm

Thanks for the replies. Example, I'll tell him it's time to go in and take a shower. He'll say say no, and start walking away. I'll finally say it enough times, threaten that whoever isn't inside she I close the door isn't invited inside, he'll come in and say, " I came in but I'm not going into the shower." I'll repeat myself a few more times with varying responses of shouted no, get out of here, I said not now! Finally he'll call me an idiot or stupid, usually under his breath, a bit scared, and since that is wholly unacceptable, I'll end up banishing him to his room post shower, no coming back down to play, read, etc.

He'll scream and cry and I'll feel guilty. He usually comes put of the shower very remorseful. Sometimes his big eyes and newly reformed demeanor will sway me to say he can have one last chance and come down for 10 more minutes or so - I don't renege often, so that isn't the problem. Sorry so long, this is just a very typical scenario. Help, please!