Tricky money situation with aging grandparent.

amother

Jade

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:41 pm

My elderly grandfather has lived alone in israel for the past 20 years since my grandmother passed away. He is close to 90. His mind is functioning but nowhere near 100%. Around 3 years ago he was put in the bais avos. The doctors say he will never go out as he has various physical problems. He gets a small income that is directly deposited into an account that he shares with my father. My grandfather is adament that he is going home soon and insists my father transfer the rent money to his landlord as he's been doing for many years. My father doesn't want to continue paying the landlord for nothing. The landlord has been to the bais avos and knows the doctor said that my grandfather is never leaving. He's happy to continue collecting rent from a tenant that doesn't live there and causes no problems. We have no relatives in israel.....any advice?

self-actualization

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 2:56 pm

Of course you need to continue paying the landlord. It's your grandfather's money and he can direct it. Doing anything else is stealing, in my opinion, and might even constitute elder abuse.

tichellady

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:22 pm

Is the landlord holding the apartment for your grandfather? If yes, then obviously he needs to get paid. If he has emptied the apartment and has new renters then it's obviously a different story.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:23 pm

OP, why all of a sudden, after 3 years, is this bothering you?
Is this actually bothering anyone?
On the other hand, does your grandfather ever actually see his bank statements?

ora_43

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:26 pm

I see how it would be really frustrating to see him throw away money like that. But it's not really throwing away. Clearly it's very psychologically important to him to think he's going home someday. Having that hope might be better for his mental (and even physical) health than a whole host of medications and therapies.

In general if you're concerned about your grandfather - that he's being taken advantage of, that he's unhappy, whatever - I would suggest talking to the social worker at the beit avot. That's what they're there for.

Does your grandfather have people in Israel who he is close to? Friends, visitors?

ora_43

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:35 pm

L'havdil, and not to go too far off topic, but this reminds me of one of Dave Barry's best (and saddest) articles:

Lost in America

Warning: is very very sad.

It centers around a similar issue - the adult kid who wants his parent to be realistic about her living options, and the adult parent for whom the housing debate is tied to much deeper issues.

greenfire

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:38 pm

perhaps someone needs to go there to israel and see what the real deal is - speak to doctors, look at the apartment, etc ... talking to the grandfather and see if he wants to officially 'move' but you cannot just stop paying rent - even if your father has a power of attorney - it's good for grandfather to be on the same page

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 3:46 pm

This sounds exactly like gemara about the father who asks the son to throw his wallet into the sea.....

Although I'm wondering if the grandfather's mind is not fully functional does it change things?

Or if the law says that the full pension is supposed to be paid to the Beit Avot if paying the Baal HaBayit is stealing from the Bet Avot?

AYLOR

amother

Jade

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:12 pm

Op here, thanks for the responses. We've let this drag on 3 years even though we knew early on that he wasn't coming home because my grandfather would always say if he's not back home in 3 months, we'll give up his apartment. Whenever the 3 months comes and goes he says lets just wait another 3 months. Yesterday he said again he's sure he's coming home in 3 months and we should extend it again. The landlord has spoken to the doctor and knows perfectly well that my grandfather will never live in that apartment again.

amother

Salmon

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:14 pm

amother wrote:

This sounds exactly like gemara about the father who asks the son to throw his wallet into the sea.....

Can you share that gemara? Sounds interesting.

MitzadSheini

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:19 pm

amother wrote:

Can you share that gemara? Sounds interesting.

Thank you Rabbi Google -

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/kidus.....1.htm

greenfire

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 4:30 pm

for him the apartment means life ... getting rid of it could quite possibly be compromising his health - because he believes he is going back there

I love the gemara story - especially because grandfather may very well be throwing his 'wallet' into the sea & yet it still says do not embarrass him

SingALong

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 8:02 pm

Would your grandfather be willing to sublet it? That way you get your money returned and it's not going down the drain but your grandfather still has the frame of mind that he can go home when he wants. Maybe only do 6 month leases if that's possible. Especially if grandfather still has furniture there, you can rent it furnished. You just may need to store all his things in a spare bedroom or storage area and not be able to rent that room out

sequoia

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 8:22 pm

SingALong wrote:

That is the best idea.

Orchid

Tue, Sep 27 2016, 10:38 pm

SingALong wrote:

I could see the Israeli landlord not letting this. Although I think it's a great idea. For all we know, the landlord, knowing his tenant will be none the wiser, is renting it to someone else and double dipping, or using it for himself. I actually think it's not a good thing that the landlord is in touch with his tenant's doctors and knows the prognosis.