Unschooling versus parenting

farm

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 12:15 pm

Kind of confused here-
I read some detailed blog posts explaining and describing the philosophy behind unschooling and how it works and I still fail to see why unschooling your kids differs from parenting your kid. And why attending standard school excludes your ability to "unschool" your kid as well.
Doesn't every (normal?) parent help their kid explore areas of interest by going to the library to read on the topic, visiting museums with exhibits devoted to that area of interest, find people involved in that field that your kid can talk to, etc? Doesn't every parent experience their kid interrupting their adult conversation about for example politics and end up having an in depth discussion with the kid giving background and explaining, and then following up with additional reading, documentaries, discussions, etc? Do unschoolers think that the average parent is on their phone all day and ignores their kid? Do they think that kids who sit in structured school all day shut off their brains and not ask insightful questions or make meaningful observations at home that leads to a vast amount of learning during non school hours? Why take away "real" school from your kid in the name of unschooling when those kids who do go to school actually get both?

MagentaYenta

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 12:36 pm

It's like a crunchier than thou attitude. I always maintained that in spite of my kids attending school they were being home schooled too. When it was time to figure out how much tile was needed for the bathroom it was a lesson in figuring area for one child. Baking was organic chemistry and microbiology, sheesh I even had a decent microscope that lived on the counter next to my Kitchenaid. Summer nights were spent viewing the stars and planets with a telescope. I recall at one point when we were moving water uphill on the farm, my DD calculated the size of the pump needed to move the water x amount of distance over x grade.

Aside from the attitude, which I ignore, I think that parents who have a love of learning can instill it in their children. Most kids are curious about how stuff works and can be taught how to be thinking problem solvers. I don't really care what you call it.

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 1:22 pm

It also includes the idea of not sending children to school at all, and not following a set curriculum for home studies - not only following their interests and being good parents while the children are home with you.

Do they think that other parents are ignoring their children? Possibly. I don't know any unschoolers, but I do know people who take a hard line on various educational philosophies, and often they like to say how bad the others are, even if obviously untrue.

To be fair, some people do give their children very little attention, whether out of lack of interest or just to let the kids be more independent. Some parents are far more engaged with their children than others.

Also to be fair - for kids attending Jewish schools in the US and riding the bus home, and possibly engaged in one or more extracurricular activities, there is precious little time with family. Quite a lot, especially for older kids, is delegated to schools.

ora_43

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 2:28 pm

What cm said. I think the idea is basically that kids don't need school, and just parenting is enough. Why go through "real" school when you don't need it? (people who enjoyed school might come up with many reasons, but for those who hated school as kids, the idea that their kids won't have to go through that has appeal)

Although many pro-unschooling posts I've seen seem to take it further, to the point of saying that school is bad for children's curiosity and natural love of learning.

At least that's what I understood. I'm not an "unschooler" any more than any other parent who sends their kids to school in the morning and lets them pursue their own interests in the afternoon.

ora_43

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 2:32 pm

farm wrote:

Doesn't every (normal?) parent help their kid explore areas of interest by going to the library to read on the topic, visiting museums with exhibits devoted to that area of interest, find people involved in that field that your kid can talk to, etc? Doesn't every parent experience their kid interrupting their adult conversation about for example politics and end up having an in depth discussion with the kid giving background and explaining, and then following up with additional reading, documentaries, discussions, etc? Do unschoolers think that the average parent is on their phone all day and ignores their kid?

I do think many parents who are good parents (and educated, and value secular education) do these things.

But most parents don't have the time or energy to do this for all of their kids, every day. I get the sense that "unschooling" means parents freeing most of their day for this stuff.

Volunteer

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 3:34 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

You're a cool mom!. Cool

seeker

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 9:26 pm

I definitely see the point.

First of all, no it's not true that parenting is like that, especially for kids who go to school. I see a lot of families where most of the time parents spend with children is preparing them and shuttling them back and forth. Get em out of bed, dressed, brush teeth, breakfast, etc; get this one to this bus at this time and that one to that bus at that time and the other one to daycare; pick them up from bus stop/school/daycare, if there's a structured extracurricular activity going on then they need to be taken to that, possibly changed into appropriate wear, picked up from there. By then it's probably supper time. If not, there's always homework. And baths/showers/snacks/meals/now it's time to get into bed because you need to be back on that bus soon enough.
When are they "going to the library to read on the topic, visiting museums with exhibits devoted to that area of interest, find people involved in that field that your kid can talk to, etc?"
Hopefully sometime but not nearly as much as these people are aiming for.

I don't think that all or even most kids who go to school shut off their brains and stop being curious, but the way schools tend to be run these days isn't too encouraging. There is very little developmental research going into curriculum design on the whole. Some schools and some teachers do cause more problems than benefits.

I don't see that homeschooling or unschooling is "taking away real schooling" in a negative sense because I don't see that they have that much to lose.

If I had the resources I would definitely strongly consider at least a loose homeschooling model for my family.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 10:05 pm

Unless you are referring to articles/ blogs written by frum Jews I think you need to take into consideration the effect public schooling has on children and how appealing it is to not put children in that sort of indoctrinating environment. (This is not a bashing of anyone who happens to have their children in public school due to special needs, lack of funds, or living out in Timbuktu. This is just the reality of the kind of indoctrination that goes on, at least in the US, in our public schools). There are people who are very put off by schools that don't simply teach math, english, science, history, etc. but step on parents' toes in shaping students' ideas culturally, religiously, politically. I totally see the appeal of the un-schooling.

Another thing is that school makes our lives tense. I don't know about everyone else but there is the stress of getting everyone up and out. I drive carpool so sitting in traffic is more stress. Then they are in school for 8 hours. Then they fight traffic with me coming home. Then it's homework and more homework (stressful for them, stressful for me). Dinner, shower, bed. When do they ever get to enjoy themselves? Run around and be kids? I have a friend (not Jewish, if it matters) who homeschools her kids. They learn in pajamas between breakfast and lunch. Then they have the rest of the day to enjoy themselves. Because it's just a few kids and she doesn't have to spread her attention to 25, 30, or more kids they get their "curriculum" work done quickly. The rest of the day is to enjoy but learning finds its way into that too. No stress. Lots of r&r. I kind of envy that situation.

seeker

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 10:33 pm

amother wrote:

Funny, I was going to say the same thing about Jewish schools. Personally I choose the "indoctrination" of yeshivas over the hyperliberal "indoctrination" of public schools, but it's a strong case for choosing "C: none of the above."

And the second part of your post is also much more of a Jewish school issue.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Sep 28 2016, 10:45 pm

seeker wrote:

Yes, absolutely our kids are being indoctrinated too, but hopefully we are choosing schools for our children where we at least largely agree with the indoctrination.

granolamom

Thu, Sep 29 2016, 9:39 pm

I know some un-schoolers and its not the same as doing this stuff after school or on weekends (although plenty of parents of schooled-kids do that too).
Its a philosophy that permeates the whole day, every day. I dont think its across the board better or worse than anything else, its just a different thing. and unschooling is not the same as your run of the mill homeschooling.
in my very limited experience, I was also doing the kitchen chemistry and long politics convo's with the kids in the evenings and on weekends. when they werent doing homework, being shuttled to friends houses to work on projects, staying late at school for various events, or plain tuckered out from a long day. its really not the same as taking charge of your own education, all day, every day. I see this less about what the parents are or are not doing than about what the kids are doing. and my kids simply did not have the time or energy to identify, much less pursue, their interests when they were in school.
that said, I'm not an un-schooler, just a run of the mill homeschooler. I know some unschoolers and they're fabulous. I kinda sorta wish I could unschool but I'm too high strung Smile

and I stay away from all mommy blogs, my self esteem cant handle the bragging

Raisin

Fri, Sep 30 2016, 4:53 am

amother wrote:

But do unschoolers follow curriculums?

farm

Fri, Sep 30 2016, 10:27 am

If anything homework and school assignments are another gateway for a kid to decide to exploring a topic when the teacher moves onto the next thing while the kids still wants to know so much more about the original topic.
Not sure what you mean Granola about your kids too spent to feel inspiration about something and pursue it after school. Seems to me that according to this unschooling philosophy, whatever they choose to do when they are "vegging" would be learning as well. If Mindcraft is the most amazing problem solving and creative thinking tool ever, then MLB2k16 builds strategy, dexterity, and teamwork!

granolamom

Sun, Oct 02 2016, 11:26 am

farm wrote:

now, I'm just speaking from my own childrens experiences, so it may or may not generalize to other peoples children.
my kids were bored in school. they did not like being told what to think about. they were NOT inspired to delve deeper into a topic introduced in the classroom. they came home cranky and tired, without energy for creative or independent thinking.
once we started homeschooling, we began with a period of 'deschooling' where we pretty much did nothing. and within two weeks the kids started pulling out encyclopedias. asking questions that lead to deep study. really noticing nature and wondering about things..which also lead to deeper investigations. they were bored so they spent alot of time with themselves, learning about their own minds and natures, developing hobbies, interests and passions that I never would have imagined laid within them (I mean, I figured they would have interests, etc but not the specific ones they discovered).
as I said, we do not unschool so I have no personal experience there. I do limit screen time here, but heres a minecraft story....my 12 yo got into minecraft last year, and he was inspired to learn to code. so we found him a mentor (that's what unschoolers often do) and he's coding his own stuff now. there is no way he'd have had time for that if he was in school. he will sometimes spend 4 hours straight working on a piece of code. and he can, because if we dont get to history lesson today, we can always just do it tomorrow.
another one of my kids, like many boys his age, likes to build things. we're doing some work on our house right now, and the builder is allowing him to apprentice the job.
from what I see about unschoolers, that's what they do. the kids have ideas and the parents support the learning. so sometimes that means finding a curriculum and teaching it. sometimes it means finding a class or a mentor or a coach. but these kids are learning. they are not just vegging out all day. vegging out does happen and that is what often times leads to inspired ideas.

I dont know what MLB2k16 is

newmom770

Wed, Oct 05 2016, 8:01 am

There is also radical unschooling. A few years back I was reading up on it on the internet and following a couple blogs. They aim to set no limits, they believe children have an innate ability to set their own limits. So no parental limits on junk food, tv time, bed time/wake up time etc. It sounds cool but I dont think this was the jewish way. Yidden have always sent their boys to cheder and the message from the Torah is that you are supposed to be interested in learning Torah and if not its the Yetzer Hora trying to distract you...