Have to say it... trump is rocking this debate!

tichellady

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 2:19 pm

Fox wrote:

Trump's success is largely due to the perception that the "smart, educated professionals" with whom many of us are surrounded are significantly out of touch. Now, that may be unfair and even inaccurate, but even Clinton in her Goldman-Sachs speech acknowledged the perception.

The Democratic Party and the progressive left could have de-fanged Trump long ago, regardless of Clinton's history or popularity.

* They could have spoken against BLM's excesses.

* They could have spoken out against BDS's excesses.

* They could have spoken out forcefully about radical Islam and demanded that others do the same -- Orlando was not about "toxic masculinity."

* They could have pretended to at least care about balancing the needs of workers and environmentalists.

* They could have spoken against the abuse of Title IX in higher education to pursue questionable aims.

* They could have avoided the temptation to label people as racists, sexists, etc., simply for disagreeing with a particular policy.

* They could have talked more about trade -- the topic that fills a huge percentage of Trump's speeches.

* They could have been less patronizing. When Trump talked about crime in urban black neighborhoods, Clinton talked about how great black churches are. To paraphrase Jesse Jackson, there's a lot more fear of "a gang banger in the 'hood than a white man wearing a hood." Which might explain why, on a foray to Chicago's Loop recently, I saw a shockingly-high number of African-Americans wearing Trump buttons -- at least for a Democratic stronghold like Chicago.

The list could go on . . . but the bottom line is that Trump's candidacy has been significantly aided and abetted by liberal/leftist isolation and arrogance.

The problem with electing Clinton is not just her own qualifications and history; it's that her election will encourage the left to stick its head even deeper into the sand. The effects of that, as history has demonstrated, is that a populist leader will likely emerge who makes Donald Trump look benign.

I was refuting her point that only Jews on food stamps would vote for clinton. You seem to be refuting her point as well.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 2:24 pm

Really? Polls show that Trump polls somewhere between 2% and 6% among black voters. So exactly how many young black men did you see wearing Trump buttons?

Just curious what Trump has said about BDS, just picking one point.

Clinton, of course, has been vocal in her opposition.

https://www.documentcloud.org/......html

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-c.....n.pdf

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/08/.....nors/

https://theintercept.com/2016/.....eech/

https://electronicintifada.net.....-fest (in 2009, no less!)

[FTR, the poster you quoted is wrong with respect to my MO community. There is a very vocal minority supporting Trump.]

Sadie

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 2:24 pm

Fox wrote:

Ah, the Pauline Kael moment! For the younger Imamothers, Pauline Kael was an influential film critic for the New Yorker and is famously attributed with some version of the following statement after Nixon defeated McGovern in 1972. The comment was widely mocked as an example of elitist tunnel vision.

She wasn't saying that trump is not electable because people she knows aren't voting for him. She was responding to an accusation that the only reason a Yid might not vote for trump, is because they want to keep their foodstamp benefits. The point is that there are many people not on foodstamps that are not voting for him.

Jeanette

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 4:02 pm

Fox wrote:

Over and over throughout this campaign I've heard trump or his supporters say, we don't need you. We can win without these people, we can win without those people.

Sorry, but you really can't. That's not the electoral reality in this country. I see the way Hillary campaigns and she is really fighting for every vote. Trump fires off his cannons, some people love it and will stick to him no matter what, but each new bombshell just turns off a few more people until he doesn't have enough voters left.

Don't blame Hillary voters for why you are voting for trump. I've voted republican in every election until now. I'll probably vote Repub in down ballot races. You vote for who you think will be best for the country, not out of spite for anyone else. So what if some intellectuals look down on trump voters. Is that a reason davka to vote for him when there are so many good reasons not to?

I voted for bush. I think history will be kinder to him than the intelligentsia was. Whatever his flaws he is a decent man who tried to do his best for the country. So people mocked. That's not why I voted for him.

Fox

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 4:45 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Really? Polls show that Trump polls somewhere between 2% and 6% among black voters. So exactly how many young black men did you see wearing Trump buttons?

I didn't count buttons (mostly worn by women), but I saw four black guys wearing MAGA hats.

You seem to be extrapolating things I didn't mean or say. Clinton will no doubt dominate the African-American vote. My point is that I have never seen so much vociferous opposition to a Democratic candidate from segments of the AA community.

I follow Hotep twitter, for example, and these guys make me look like an apologist for Clinton. In the past there's been indifference, but never this level of antipathy.

SixOfWands wrote:

Just curious what Trump has said about BDS, just picking one point.

Clinton, of course, has been vocal in her opposition.

You're confusing two separate issues: the positions of the political parties and/or their candidates and the people who are influential in the party or who will likely have influence in the administration through various means.

I'm not as concerned about who actually wins this election as I am about the forces that will be set in motion for the future. I'm not as concerned about whether Clinton herself opposes BDS as I am about who will have access to her ear. Unfortunately, a lot of liberal think-tanks are well-stocked with people who defend or ignore anti-Semitism.

Jeanette wrote:

Don't blame Hillary voters for why you are voting for trump. 've voted republican in every election until now. 'll probably vote Repub in down ballot races. You vote for who you think will be best for the country, not out of spite for anyone else. So what if some intellectuals look down on trump voters. Is that a reason davka to vote for him when there are so many good reasons not to?

You're missing my point. It's not about people feeling "looked down on" -- it's about feeling that bicoastal elites don't have the same priorities and values. That's not something I made up; Clinton discussed this problem in her remarks at Goldman-Sachs.

Clinton and the Democratic Party can choose to address this or not. My point is simply that the dangers are significant if they don't choose to address it.

Demonizing Trump voters simply increases the perception of a disdainful elite that includes the MSM, and that's why I think it's a particularly bad long-term strategy for the Democratic Party and for Clinton supporters. They increase their chances of winning the battle only slightly, but they significantly increase their chances of losing the war.

bluebird

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 5:11 pm

In addition to what SixOfWands wrote, check out him discussing his daughters in a s-xual way and all a whole other 20 minutes of misogyny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuaDOyy4osI

I find it darkly funny how much we discuss teaching our children about being shomer negia, unwanted touch, avoiding molestation, and making sure that molesters are punished—yet here are women defending Trump talking about how he has a compulsion to kiss beautiful women, try to seduce married women (issur kareis!!!), talk about even his own daughter's body in a s-xual way, and grope women.

What a lesson. It's OK when it's Trump, because he's better than Hillary Clinton.

At this point I think Trump could eat a baby on live television while talking about how fine his daughter Ivanka's body is and people would still be able to excuse it. And women from this site would line up to let him kiss them.

gold21

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 10:21 pm

bluebird wrote:

Trump definitely gets away with a lot.

I think we have to ask ourselves why he is given so much leeway.

My take is that there are many many unrepresented people on this country. The media tries to dictate what we should think and feel about issues. Late night talk show hosts poking fun at conservative views, daytime TV poking fun at conservative views, talk radio poking fun at every Democrat to walk G-d's green earth.... Honestly, it's ridiculous. It's frustrating when you want to watch a fun easy uncomplicated show (think, Ellen or Jimmy Kimmel) and you feel like your viewpoints are laughed at, it's frustrating to see celebrities lining up to poke fun at issues that are important to you.

Donald Trump showed up, and he challenged the status quo, he is a celebrity in his own right and runs in the same circles as many in the media and entertainment industry, yet he speaks his mind, he does not follow the unwritten rules of the entertainment industry (which is, to hate conservative ideals). People responded by joining Team Trump.

Now it turns out that he's a sleazy bigmouth. You know what, people still want to like him. Because they feel represented by him in a culture where nobody else is willing to represent them.

Another point is that Trump challenges the idea that everyone is allowed to be offended by everything that everyone else does or says and apologies are always in order. (You mention on your TV show that the terrorist was Muslim- what does his religion have to with anything, you evil Islamophobe? Now apologize and quit your job, you terrible person./ You consider Black Lives Matter to be a race-baiting organization? Well clearly you're the racist, you white supremacist, now go hide in a corner, you miserable excuse for a human being.) Until Trump came along, who motormouths his way along and apologizes for nothing.

So, yep, I think the imbalanced media starved a group of people of their right to a less popular viewpoint and thereby gave us the Trump phenomenon. Thank You liberal media! Great work yet again!

Last edited by gold21 on Tue, Oct 11 2016, 1:10 am; edited 2 times in total

marina

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 12:40 am

Fox, it's easy-peasy to blame a movement on the the failure of anyone on the other side to stop their own extremists, but this often offers an incorrect or incomplete analysis.

For example, I could argue that the BDS movement is entirely the fault of Zionist Jews who didn't reign in their violent extremists. That's essentially the same as your argument here- Trump rose to power because no one stopped the leftist extremists.... meh. I don't think so. I even think this argument itself reflects a very educated, upper-class perspective.

I think many people - if not most- who will vote for Trump don't care at all about BLM or BDS or Title IX and higher education or being labeled as racists. They care about their own safety and security.

Trump, like many many successful politicians before and after him, rouses the masses with his populist messages of fear. The Muslims are coming for your families, the illegal immigrants are coming for your jobs, and Hillary Clinton is coming for your guns and I will save you. I will defeat ISIS, kick out the illegals, improve jobs and protect the second amendment. I will save you. I will save you from them.

That is his entire campaign and it can be anyone's. You say that enough times in different ways, people will vote for you just because they're afraid not to. Not much really to do with BDS or Title IX or anything like that.

Mevater

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 12:43 am

gold21 wrote:

Donald Trump showed up, and he challenged the status quo, he is a celebrity in his own right and runs in the same circles as many in the media and entertainment industry, yet he speaks his mind, he does not follow the unwritten rules of the entertainment industry (which is, to hate conservative ideals). People responded by joining Team Trump.

+100000000

Trump is far from perfect but he gives a voice to those who feel that all of America shouldnt be forced to Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of United Politically Correct States of America, without the slightest divergence.

Jeanette

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 1:09 am

Mevater wrote:

There were 16 intelligent conservatives running in the primaries. So what, they weren't cool enough? The TV hosts would laugh at them? Boo hoo.

This shows how shallow and crass the Trump movement is. It's not about change or principles or ideals. It's about finally getting back at the cool kids because we have our own cool kid to follow.

Pathetic.

tichellady

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 1:25 am

Mevater wrote:

I am considering what you are saying I guess I don't think he supports conservative ideals. Someone who really valued "conservative ideals" would not talk about women or minorities the way he does. I don't think tha conservatives only value the lives of unborn children but have no regard for the lives of actual people whether they be male or female, white or black, muslim, Jewish, secular or Christian. I think if anything he has made it clear that's he lacks values, except for maybe valuing financial success and good looks. I guess one could decide that he/she prefers his set of "values" over liberal values- but at least recognize that he is not espousing conservative values.

gold21

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 1:40 am

Jeanette wrote:

and your point is....?

People wanted a media star to follow. Not a competent, intelligent leader. So they got what they wanted. Yay.

No, they wanted someone who would challenge the status quo, someone who would challenge the dishonest media and the rampant p.c. culture that is taking over the country, and the fact that he is a celebrity with star power makes people feel validated and accepted. (A celebrity that wants to represent me! What a novelty!)

Most would acknowledge that Trump is both immoral and egotistical, but the lack of other people to fall back on to champion the causes of those who are displeased by the p.c. climate in our country causes many people to continue backing him, almost in desperation. Its sad, but what's even sadder is that people were brought to this point, where they feel so marginalized that they're willing to elect anyone, even a slob and a bully, who is willing to represent them.

So next time you see Trump on your television screen... Call CNN and thank them. Wink

(I feel obligated to add that Clinton is far from squeaky clean. Her personality is not as distasteful as Trump's, but it's not like she's Mother Theresa, so let's call a spade a spade. She only seems so wholesome because she's being compared to Trump, were she up against someone else, she would not translate that way. Lucky for her I guess.)

gold21

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 2:13 am

tichellady wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sure how conservative he is, but what he is definitely NOT is p.c., and that's his selling point in a world oversaturated by political correctness.

Mevater

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 8:19 am

tichellady wrote:

I think if anything he has made it clear that's he lacks values, except for maybe valuing financial success and good looks. I guess one could decide that he/she prefers his set of "values" over liberal values- but at least recognize that he is not espousing conservative values.

Hes not trying to espouse any values (thats his running mate), except for the ability to speak your mind, in the climate of Total Political Correctness or Death To You!

If we took a study of all Imamother husbands and recorded their every word, and watched and recorded their every action, wed find lots of surprising nauseating stuff with a surprising number of husbands. I am sure of that!

Trump is a very wealthy individual and men and women gravitate to him. He is possibly a bigger braggard than anything.

Btw, if Bill C can still "do it" (potent), Id have cameras on him every waking minute, if he makes it to the White House, and cameras on Hillary too, to make sure she doesnt smear and threaten the women, instead of Bill!

allthingsblue

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 8:40 am

Mevater wrote:

Oh, I'm just as sure that the "nauseating stuff" wouldn't be half as horrible as what Trump said.
And it would be a small minority of our husbands.
Some husbands are quite happy with their wives, especially newlyweds (as Trump was when he made those comments). I know mine is!