Conversion Crisis | Imamother

rfeig613

Mon, Oct 10 2016, 8:55 pm

To me, the move to pasul gerim seems to be based on political motives. Come on, if R' GD Schwartz says the geirus is good, who has grounds to be mocheh against him?

I have some gerim in my family who couldn't move to Israel, and they're very frum, ehrlich people. It bothers me.

Some say that if a ger stops being Orthodox, then the geirus is invalidated, but that seems to have no basis to me. If a ger speaks lashon hara but keeps shabbos, than is that grounds that they were insincere in kabbalas hamitzvos? If we pasuled people's Jewishness for breaking mitzvos, nobody would be Jewish anymore.

amother

Peach

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 3:19 am

I can't make Aliyah as DH is a ger. We don't think he should have to go through it again plus cause family strife over it. It won't be pretty and we treasure our family too much.

Aliyah isn't even a consideration at this point for us. Because of this we won't even look into whether it's feasible otherwise. Exploding anger

sourstix

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 4:45 am

Geirus has a lot of halachos involved.who is this Schwartz person? Is he recognized by gedolim worldwide? Are the rw rabonim agreeing with all of this? If so I would love to see a written ksav. You have to understand that geirus is a very serious thing. And if the rabonim who were involved were not the top in Halacha then this happens.

This keeps happening every while people get all upset with rabonim.

If you go to the top rabonim for this you wouldn't have an issue, it's going to rabonim that are not knowledgeable in this and just do what their agenda is then you get into problems.

I'm not saying this is what happened here, I don't even know the story here. I'm just explaining why this can happen.

5mom

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 4:57 am

sourstix wrote:

"This Schwartz person" has been the Av Beis Din of the RCA since 1991.

That the Rabbanut could void a geirus he oversaw is beyond shocking.

DrMom

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 5:58 am

It's complicated.

On one hand, there is no centralized authority overseeing conversions worldwide. It is understandable that the Rabbinut is wary of accepting every conversion at face value.

On the other hand, once the Rabbinut agrees to accept a conversion, it is a horrid policy to allow them to revoke someone's Jewish status. It can destroy generations of families.

rfeig613

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 8:34 am

It's at the point where I know a rav who suggests that men shouldn't marry a giyores because of the effect on yichus and the children, but if women marry a ger, there are really no ramifications, because yichus gets passed on by the mother. The problem is that people have different ideas of who is a rabbi. The stam halacha is that all you need are 3 hedyotos for geirus. How did it come to be that 3 hedyotos becomes 3 mumchim?

sourstix

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 11:17 am

The rabbanut in Israel means absolutely nothing to me. I have no respect for them. They don't follow real das Torah. Are you kidding? There is not a thing I would follow. And they overriding another rav is comical at best. They don't carry weight. I don't know this rav Schwartz and I'm not saying he doesn't carry merit. He might very well. But if these geirim would go to let's say . Rav shteinman then close to 100% they wouldn't be dealing with shady issues like this. That was my original point. Now all these people could still go to him and have it done the right way. Rabbanut has no bearing in mind as to what is ok and what is not. And not to any of the frum people I know.

sourstix

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 11:28 am

Rabbi Schwartz received his ordination in yeshiva university. And he not one of the rabbonim I would go to for geirus. I would go to someone the highest in the rung of rabbonim.

I hope enough people reading this would actually do this as they would be saving themselves a lot of agmas nefesh

SixOfWands

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 11:42 am

sourstix wrote:

Since 1991, Rabbi Schwartz has been the av beis din of both the Beth Din of America and the Chicago Rabbinical Council, as well as the rosh beth din of the National Beth Din of the RCA. He is also editor of HaDarom, the RCA Torah journal.

That's pretty much the top rung of the ladder.

Invalidating his conversions is an absolute chilul Hashem.

Not to mention Rabbi Mordechai Willig. Rosh yeshiva of YU. Deputy av beis din of the Beth Din of America. Definitely not my favorite in light of the Baruch Lanner debacle, but certainly a highly respected rabbi, right up at the top of the ladder.

One of his conversions was invalidated as well.

The Israeli rabbinate has created fear and uncertainty for people who want nothing more than to live their lives -- as Jews -- in peace. From what was its super-secret list of rabbis whose conversions they would accept, to their final release of the list last spring -- including both Rabbi Schwartz and Rabbi Willig --then within months, invalidating conversions by those very rabbis.

My heart just breaks.

amother

Olive

Tue, Oct 11 2016, 6:38 pm

I have lost so much respect for the Rabbanut over this issue.

I am a gioret. The beit din I used many years ago is not on the approved "list." When I was undergoing conversion, the process was SO HARD. People are often surprised when they learn I am a gioret because they say, "but you know so much, how can you have learned all of that?" It was because the bar for my conversion was very, very high. The justification was that once the conversion was done, there was no turning back, so the rabbeim needed to be 100% certain that I was fully committed and learned enough to keep the mitzvot. I learned for years. and years. I moved cities to the big city closest to me with a vibrant orthodox community and respected beit din.

But I live knowing that the Rabbanut could invalidate me as a Jew.

I am now the mother of many kids, bh. I live knowing that my oldest sons, who are in their early teen years, now want to make aliyah and serve in the army. And I fear what will happen to them if they learn that some people might consider them not Jewish? This is so terribly heartbreaking to me, the idea of someone in authority telling my children that they are not Jewish. I think this is a major problem with the centralization of rabbinic authority on such a scale as we have today. It robs batei din of their authority. (I'm not talking about a crazy, rogue beit din that's gone off the rails. I'm talking about real, respectable batei din, of which there are plenty.)

amother

Lavender

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 2:51 pm

amother wrote:

I am a gioret. The beit din I used many years ago is not on the approved "list." When I was undergoing conversion, the process was SO HARD. People are often surprised when they learn I am a gioret because they say, "but you know so much, how can you have learned all of that?" It was because the bar for my conversion was very, very high. The justification was that once the conversion was done, there was no turning back, so the rabbeim needed to be 100% certain that I was fully committed and learned enough to keep the mitzvot. I learned for years. and years. I moved cities to the big city closest to me with a vibrant orthodox community and respected beit din.

But I live knowing that the Rabbanut could invalidate me as a Jew.

I am now the mother of many kids, bh. I live knowing that my oldest sons, who are in their early teen years, now want to make aliyah and serve in the army. And I fear what will happen to them if they learn that some people might consider them not Jewish? This is so terribly heartbreaking to me, the idea of someone in authority telling my children that they are not Jewish. I think this is a major problem with the centralization of rabbinic authority on such a scale as we have today. It robs batei din of their authority. (I'm not talking about a crazy, rogue beit din that's gone off the rails. I'm talking about real, respectable batei din, of which there are plenty.)

My heart aches for you. How rude of people to question how you could have learned all that. I know many converts and BTs with very high levels of knowledge. May all go well for you.

grace413

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 2:53 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I know Rav Schwartz personally and he is a mentsh, a kind and respectful person, as well as being a Gadol Ba'Torah.

sourstix

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 10:18 pm

Ok this is an innocent question, so don't think I am trying to mock anyone chv'. Why does anyone here or anywhere care what the rabbanut has to say they' are the one I wouldn't care at all. So if they say your not Jewish it's the same as a drunk guy says an insulting comment. You know you went to a prestigious rav. That's how I see it.

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 10:24 pm

sourstix wrote:

Oh really now.

Drunk people don't have the power to deny you aliya rights, or not let you get married in Israel, or a host of other things that affect you when the Rabbanut invalidates your conversion.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 10:26 pm

sourstix wrote:

In our family we have a saying that goes like this: "Half conversations do not enter." With all due respect, if you are uninformed about the situation, refrain from commenting. Or you can ask in a genuine way.

The rabbanut is the one who gets to decide if someone can make aliyah as a Jew or not.

amother

Peach

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 10:43 pm

Why do I care? Because my husband, and therefore by default we as a family, can't make Aliyah as a yid and would have to go through an anxiety provoking drawn out investigation to see if he is a yid or not. Which will cause huge family machlokes within his family.

Glad I was born a yid so my kids won't have these issues. Their shomer shabbos mom just might have "intermarried". Rolling Eyes