Conversion Crisis | Imamother

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Conversion Crisis

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amother

Peach

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 7:42 am

imasinger wrote:

While I agree with much of the sentiment of your post, amother, in all fairness to sourstix, it ought to be pointed out that the "respectful and decent" way to express direct criticism is with your own screen name.

To stand up for the amother, there could be a reason to be amother, like in my case. I wrote some personal things about DH that I don't want on my SN since it could identify me or in case my identity is found out. But once I am on a thread as amother, I usually stick with it for the duration of the thread so it does not appear that there are multiple people with the same idea/belief.

rfeig613

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 10:33 am

Dayan Fuerst in Chicago refers to Rav Schwartz as the zaken hair. He's a rare breed of gadol, and I shudder to think what will happen once he's gone. He should have a refuah sheleimah min hashamayim bimheira.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 12:30 pm

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along.
[edited]

5mom

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 12:34 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along and take up some other hobby.

I really think that this post constitutes onaas
ha-ger. A person decides to live under kanfei haShechina, to sacrifice family relationships and to take on the yoke of Torah, and you dismiss this as a hobby?!?!

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 12:45 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along and take up some other hobby.

Oh, so turning over your entire life in pursuit of what you believe is truth is a hobby???

amother

Peach

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along and take up some other hobby.

Terrible thing to say. DH grew up thinking he was a Jew and went to become a BT and found out his mother really wasn't a yid. He learns daily, went to yeshiva, is strict in Halacha...
He thinks of himself as a BT and People don't even realize he's a BT let alone a Ger with his vast knowledge and ease of practice. He is a role model in how to follow the Emes when he saw it even when it is difficult.

This is no hobby. It wasn't too hard- he was happy to work for it and to learn. It wasn't like he was missing anything in his life. He just went to a class once and saw how true it is.
The only problem is when people start questioning the halachic conversion and minimizing the difficulties. We have kids... Converting again means rekashering everything since he cooks and uses non mevushal wine sometimes. He cooks at others houses as well. A new chuppah. Issues for our kids- can he be in yichud with my daughter if he's no longer a halachic parent? (Conversion means you break halachic ties with prior family.) have I been violating Halacha until now?

It isn't a right (but is a possibility as you see from HALACHA) and those who do it are not allowed to be shamed or mistreated. Which you are doing the DAY AFTER YK.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

Oh, so turning over your entire life in pursuit of what you believe is truth is a hobby???

But it's not turning over your entire life in pursuit of truth. It's turning over your life for something you feel you want. You're not obligated. In fact, you can be a perfect non-Jew much more easily than you can be even a mediocre Jew.

amother

Olive

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:03 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along and take up some other hobby.

First, I am not sure to whom you are speaking. It may be me, as I posted upthread about how hard the conversion process was. My point in saying that is that a lot was, rightly, required of me before the beit din would approve my conversion. The beit din set a very high bar, as it should. This ensured that I was sincere, committed, and had demonstrated a full understanding of all that it would take to live a life of Torah and mitzvot and had shown that I was capable of conducting this life and wanted to do.

While there may be batei din that set a lower bar and convert people who don't live mitzvadik lives after their conversion, there are MANY like me who do live that life, but their conversions were done under a beit din that is not on the "list".

Second, conversion is not a "right". No one has said that. However, halacha does have a way for people to become Jewish. It is well established in our tradition (think Ruth, who merits to be the foremother of David haMelech.) So it does feel like someone's rights are violated when a person who is a torahdik Jew could be "invalidated" because they used the wrong beit din years ago before there was any "list", or a child of such a person, who has been raised FFB, is prevented from making aliyah and marrying in Israel.

Third, your statement equates conversion with a "hobby." This is deeply offensive. Judaism is not a "hobby" for the women on this site, whether gioret or born-Jewess. For this reason, I reported your post. (I would post this under my SN, but I commented another upthread and revealed personal information, so I'm continuing to go another here.)

Last, you state that "Judaism does not encourage conversion." That is correct. The persons who have successfully had orthodox conversions have, as halacha requires, been repeatedly turned away. They have had to justify and prove themselves over and over in order to be admitted to the "tribe." They have persevered despite being repeatedly discouraged, often in very stark terms. For me, that included having a rav go on a diatribe while I was shivering in the mikvah about how I could possibly want to become Jewish, as people would want to kill my children. How could I endanger my unborn children?? They have continued in their commitment despite facing prejudice from the community they are joining, despite the fact that they know that their children may be less desirable in shidduchim because of the mother's status. Precisely because each ger has overcome this strong discouragement they deserve respect.

SixOfWands

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:03 pm

amother wrote:

Rabbi Schwartz is not top rung. He is a leader in the modern to slightly right Orthodox world, but not considered a gadol. I personally know someone converting through the RCA, and her intentions are suspect and the rabbis
involved know. I don't know if he is involved anymore as he had a stroke last year.

Ah, so a leader in the Modern Orthodox world is not "top rung." I guess only RW people are. Rolling Eyes

Sadie

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:03 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along.
[edited]

When the Rabbanut doesn't accept conversions we're talking about *conversions that already happened and people that are already Jewish* not people that are finding the conversion process difficult. Your comment is irrelevant to the discussion.

amother

Olive

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:15 pm

amother wrote:

My heart aches for you. How rude of people to question how you could have learned all that. I know many converts and BTs with very high levels of knowledge. May all go well for you.

Thank you for your kind words. I haven't taken it as rude - it usually comes out as people being really impressed, in a nice way. As in, "wow, I'm amazed that someone who hasn't been learning their whole life can know so much." Once the conversation has opened, a number of people have commented on how impressed they have been with the breadth and depth of knowledge of some of the converts they have met.

I think the general assumption is that when someone begins something later in life that they won't be as knowledgeable or adept as someone who's done it their whole life. Which is often true in many things. When I hear someone speak a language with great fluency, I am a bit surprised and impressed if I learn that they learned it as an adult.

I used to be very self conscious about being a gioret, but now I am older and more comfortable and "out of the closet". I thank my av beit din for insisting that I learn a whole lot more than was needed just to live my life. This knowledge helped give me the self confidence to feel like an insider.

SixOfWands

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:18 pm

sourstix wrote:

No one is trying to bash anyone's rav.

I was clarifying as to what someone should do to make sure that a geirus would be considered done properly. And the other poster explained why Rabbi Schwartz is not the top of the rung of rabbonim when it comes to geirus. We are saying what it is that can be helpful for people to prevent problems.
If the rabbanut is doing whatever it can to make Jews lives miserable we know that. In essence they themselves are not following halacha properly so it's obvious it's political and weather today they are in the mood of letting things fly. At this point in time the secular Israeli government is doing all it can to the frum world to make it as hard as they can make it. It's called hate. They hate us more then some of the secular world. So now u got your answer. The question is how can we go around this issue.

I don't live there so I can't tell you. Perhaps some Israelis can help out.

The Israeli rabbinate reached an agreement with the RCA some years ago, with a list of rabbis whose conversions would be acceptable. The problem, of course, is that the list was not released. So as a potential convert, you were pretty much working blind. After years, the list was released in April 2016. As would be obvious to most people in the know, it included both Rabbi Schwartz and Rabbi Willig. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.....15270 Except, of course, those are the two rabbis whose conversions were just invalidated.

Meaning that its all a cr@pshoot.

This should not be a political issue. Its people's lives we're talking about.

And this has nothing to do with the secular government of Israel. I'm sure they have no opinion on whether or not a particular conversion is appropriate. Its all about a Charedi rabbinate trying to govern others.

WhatFor

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:37 pm

amother wrote:

Judaism does not encourage conversion.
It's not a right.
If it's too hard, just move right along.
[edited]

What gives you the right to say that conversion is not a right? True gerim obviously have that right as there are laws about how to enable them to convert and treating them afterward. According to Judaism, Gerim are people whose neshamot were born Jewish - what gives you the right to say that they should just stop at keeping sheva mitzvot?

amother

Lime

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 2:33 pm

Its all very well people making idiotic statements that people should not convert but take a family like mine. My mother converted 40 years ago along with my oldest sister. Ten more children were born. We are all frum and bh have large families, some of my siblings are grandparents at this stage. Many of us rabbanim, or married to rabbanim. It happens to be my mother converted with a very reputable beit din in chul - but these above mentioned rabbanim also appear to be very reputable. How do I know tomorrow that the Rabbanut will not declare all conversions done by this beit din invalid? Over a hundred people will find themselves declared not Jewish, or married to a non Jew.

Its ridiculous in any case. My mother (as are most converts) was clearly a sincere convert. She wears a sheital, says tehillim several times a day and is truly a tzadekes. Her intentions at the time of giyur is what is relevent.

happybeingamom

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 4:31 pm

The total disrespect for Rabbonim and Geirim in this thread is appalling. I am disgusted.

dancingqueen

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 5:11 pm

I really think it's not ok for MO rabbis to be called "that Schwartz guy", not "top rung", or YU semicha disparaged. If I spoke similarly about Lakewood rosh yeshivas or chassidish Dayanim there would be an outcry.

sourstix

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:11 pm

Six of wands I want to say this as I think it's important to people who like to be educated. Modern orthodox and conservatives as well as reform practice yiddishkeit. Different then yeshivish and chasidish people.

The mo or the reform and the word reform is being used because their rabbonim are reforming Halacha and hashkafa. They want to modernize. Now I didn't make this up, this is what they have been saying from day one. That is why anyone from the rw communities look at any of their Halacha PSAK skeptically. I for sure won't be accepting their version in Halacha. And it doesn't mean I don't respect you as a mo or reform Jew. I respect you, but I don't accept your ravs psak. In matters of geirus you wouldn't want to go to a rav that has modernized because you want to make sure it's done correctly. You want to go to a rav that respects Halacha to the fullest.

I tried to say this as nice as I possibly can. I do not mean to hurt or criticize all I want to do is educate. You can do as you wish. You can disregard what I say. As this is what I believe. I did not mean to diminish any authority figures here. I was educating.

rfeig613

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:22 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

These same people are the types who would refer to the Rav, zatzal, as JB, r"l, and who were mevazeh Rabbi Lamm and Rav Kook, zatzal, in his lifetime.

It's sad and tragic that this is what the world has sunk to. Disrespecting talmidei chachamim and being oiver on the lo saseh of innui hager (36 times in the torah) somehow make one more "religious." I was brought up in a very shtark family with a shaychus to YU. DH learned in black hat yeshivos and YU/RIETS and says the learning in RIETS is on the highest level.

SixOfWands

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:37 pm

sourstix wrote:

Did you really just conflate Modern Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism?

I'm rendered speechless, which is exceedingly rare for me.

sequoia

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:45 pm

As I've mentioned, I attended a Reform Jewish day school for K-3 and the affiliated Temple. At the time, I was not halachically Jewish, though I didn't know that.

There is no similarity between Reform Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism in any aspect of praxis or doxy.

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