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Why is third party "a vote for Clinton/Trump"?
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amother
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Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 8:29 am
Just to start, I already voted, so no use for strangers on the internet to try to change my mind Smile In any event, I've often heard throughout this election that "a vote for a third party is a vote for Clinton (or a vote for Trump)". How does that work? I mean I get that in a swing state, it could tip the balance (I'm NOT in a swing state), but even so, what makes it specifically a vote for one or the other? Since I've heard both phrases, what determines whether a particular third party vote "went" to Clinton or "went" to Trump? Honestly curious here.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 8:32 am
Because third parties have no realistic chance to win. Therefore, if your vote would have gone to Clinton had you not voted for a third party, you essentially "voted" for trump because that's one less Clinton vote that he's up against. And vice verse.
Although if you're not in a swing state, it's more of a statement than a vote, because your state will likely vote republican/democrat despite your vote.
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amother
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Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 8:43 am
Right, in a non-swing state, it doesn't matter, so I didn't tip the balance and my third party vote doesn't matter to either side. I could write in for Albus Dumbledore, it's meaningless (though it's still important to vote because Senate/House/State races do matter at that level). If I were in a swing state, why does it matter who I hypothetically might have voted for. In real life, I didn't vote for either. I wasn't going to vote for Clinton and then decided, meh, I'll go with Jill Stein; I wasn't going to vote for Trump and then decided meh, I'll go with Gary Johnson. I made a considered choice to vote third party because I didn't like my options. I never would have voted for either of them.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 8:47 am
But you COULD HAVE voted for them. Some people don't like either candidate but are choosing the better of two evils. Therefore it's viewed as though you threw your vote for (trump/Clinton) in the garbage.
I'm voting for a write-in. I'm throwing a way a trump vote, because in an ordinary election I would have voted republican. Therefore, I guess I am essentially voting for Clinton LOL
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 9:56 am
By this logic, if you vote for nobody, is that a vote for everybody?
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:05 am
DrMom wrote:
By this logic, if you vote for nobody, is that a vote for everybody?


No, it's a vote for whichever candidate you wouldn't have voted for.

IOW voting for a third party candidate is the same thing as not voting in this regard -- it increases the chances of whomever you wouldn't have voted for compared to if you would have voted for the other candidate. Voter turnout is a huge factor in who wins elections, so not showing up (or voting 3rd party) definitely is a form of "voting for the opponent".

Of course it's better than not showing up in the sense that a) you may be voting for other positions or issues on the ballot b) showing that your particular demographic shows up to vote has political implications regardless of who you actually vote for.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:11 am
Still doesn't make sense. The reason I either voted 3rd party or wrote in or left president blank and voted down ballot is because they're BOTH my opponents. If only one was my opponent, I would have voted for the other one. And I know Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, and Evan McMullin have zero chance of winning, but that's not the point. I didn't vote to help one of them win. I voted to vote down ballot; I voted to register my disgust with both major parties; I voted because maybe next time a third party can be a serious contender.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:11 am
allthingsblue wrote:
But you COULD HAVE voted for them. Some people don't like either candidate but are choosing the better of two evils. Therefore it's viewed as though you threw your vote for (trump/Clinton) in the garbage.
I'm voting for a write-in. I'm throwing a way a trump vote, because in an ordinary election I would have voted republican. Therefore, I guess I am essentially voting for Clinton LOL


Well, your name is All Things Blue! Give us time; maybe we can turn you to the dark (blue) side.
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:16 am
Voting for a 3rd party candidate in our current system is effectively the same as not voting. It's also effectively saying you consider either actual possible outcome (Trump or Clinton) equally preferable. If you have any preference about who wins (or loses), then don't vote for a 3rd party candidate.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:46 am
I voted third party and convinced my family to do the same.

Anyone who says that a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for the one you dislike most doesn't understand how the electoral college works. MAYBE in a swing state this argument would be tenable. But if you live in a solidly blue OR red state (ie most people), why vote for someone you don't love when it's not even necessary?
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:52 am
sequoia wrote:
I voted third party and convinced my family to do the same.

Anyone who says that a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for the one you dislike most doesn't understand how the electoral college works. MAYBE in a swing state this argument would be tenable. But if you live in a solidly blue OR red state (ie most people), why vote for someone you don't love when it's not even necessary?


But how many people voting for these 3rd party candidates actually think those candidates are qualified to become president? I realize there are some ardent supporters who actually want that candidate, but most people are doing it as a perceived "protest" because they aren't head-over-heels for either of the actually viable candidates. But what will that accomplish?

And yes, it is very significant in a swing state, precisely because of how the electoral college works. If you vote for a 3rd party candidate in a swing state, you are saying you don't care which of the two candidates actually in a position to be elected, are elected.

And the popular vote is important in its own way, though it's more complicated.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:53 am
sequoia wrote:
I voted third party and convinced my family to do the same.

Anyone who says that a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for the one you dislike most doesn't understand how the electoral college works. MAYBE in a swing state this argument would be tenable. But if you live in a solidly blue OR red state (ie most people), why vote for someone you don't love when it's not even necessary?


Exactly I live in a blue state with committed electors. I'm not particularly concerned about individuals voting for 3rd party candidates.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:55 am
sweetpotato wrote:
But how many people voting for these 3rd party candidates actually think those candidates are qualified to become president? I realize there are some ardent supporters who actually want that candidate, but most people are doing it as a perceived "protest" because they aren't head-over-heels for either of the actually viable candidates. But what will that accomplish?.


I cannot speak for others, but I wouldn't vote for someone who didn't have my full support. It's easier to stay home.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:56 am
sequoia wrote:
I voted third party and convinced my family to do the same.

Anyone who says that a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for the one you dislike most doesn't understand how the electoral college works. MAYBE in a swing state this argument would be tenable. But if you live in a solidly blue OR red state (ie most people), why vote for someone you don't love when it's not even necessary?


Well, did you love the third party candidate?
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 10:59 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Well, did you love the third party candidate?


Ok maybe love is too strong a word LOL
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 11:49 am
sweetpotato wrote:
But how many people voting for these 3rd party candidates actually think those candidates are qualified to become president? I realize there are some ardent supporters who actually want that candidate, but most people are doing it as a perceived "protest" because they aren't head-over-heels for either of the actually viable candidates. But what will that accomplish?

And yes, it is very significant in a swing state, precisely because of how the electoral college works. If you vote for a 3rd party candidate in a swing state, you are saying you don't care which of the two candidates actually in a position to be elected, are elected.

And the popular vote is important in its own way, though it's more complicated.

The third parties aren't going to win, but if they get over 5% represent in this election then they are entitled to certain advantages in the future that could prevent the type of two-party sweep we have now. Right now there are so many people hating the fact that they need to choose between these two thoroughly messed up parties, that they need to understand that the only way to change that is to vote for the leading third party.
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shooting star




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 12:53 pm
This is my answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v7XXSt9XRM

LOL
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 1:09 pm
sequoia wrote:
Ok maybe love is too strong a word LOL


Look, I get you. I voted 3d party, as a protest vote, in the last NYC mayoral election, because I couldn't imagine two worse candidates than we had. But in that case, diBlasio was predicted to win, and actually won, 73% of the popular vote. There was nothing I could do, one way or another, to influence the election. And voting for a Republican I didn't care for, who had about the same chance of winning as did my son's stuffed hippo, wasn't a real answer for me.

Here, the two major candidates offer such contrasting visions of America that its difficult for me to imagine not being attracted to one vision or the other. And it remains unclear who will win the popular vote. (I believe that the polls underestimate Trump, as a lot of closet racists don't want to publicly admit they are voting for him, but will. Please note that I did not state that all Trump supporters are racists.) Given that, I don't support the idea of a protest vote.

Of course, anyone who genuinely supports a third party candidate should vote for him or her. That's a whole different thing.

The important thing is to VOTE. 100 years ago, most of us here would not have had the right to vote in the US. Today, we can. And -- whether or not you support her -- we have a woman with the chance to become POTUS. We should all be so grateful for this privilege. To vot. To vote for a woman to become POTUS. To vote for someone else to become POTUS. Get out. VOTE!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 3:01 pm
None of the 3rd party candidates are any good either.
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Miri7




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 08 2016, 3:35 pm
sequoia wrote:
I voted third party and convinced my family to do the same.

Anyone who says that a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for the one you dislike most doesn't understand how the electoral college works. MAYBE in a swing state this argument would be tenable. But if you live in a solidly blue OR red state (ie most people), why vote for someone you don't love when it's not even necessary?


I think when people say it's a vote for the one you dislike the most they are specifically talking about swing states and close races.

That's why some people are "trading" votes via an app. The idea is to build up third party candidate/party support without risking electing the person that both of the voters don't want elected. That's Trump in the following example.

For example -
Pennsylvania voter wants to vote third party, but realizes that she lives in a swing state and REALLY doesn't want Trump to win. She pairs up with a California voter (where Clinton is pretty certain to win) who wants to vote for Clinton.

The CA voter votes third party (the PA voter's first choice) - this builds up third party votes without risking electoral college votes because CA is going for Clinton. It's "safe" for Clinton supporters to vote third party in CA because Clinton is (fairly) certain to win CA.

The PA voter votes for Clinton. In PA, a vote for Clinton "counts" more because it's a swing state and the Clinton-Trump race is closer there.

So both voters work to achieve their goals:
1 Avoid Trump getting elected
2 Support third party
3 Support Clinton in key state
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