TRUMP WON!!! | Imamother

chaiz

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 1:25 pm

Fox wrote:

President Obama and Ms. Clinton claimed to be great friends of the LGBT and Latino communities. Their response to Orlando made many people think, "With friends like that, our enemies have a clear shot!"

Not sure how they showed no support to the LGBT community. The way I saw it was that the right was all into it being a crime of Islamic dominance and the left was all into it being an attack on the LGBT community and how we have to stop being so homophobic.

Fox

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 2:32 pm

chaiz wrote:

This is precisely my point. There was no homophobic "we" involved.

There are plenty of people who disapprove of homos-xuality. Some disapprove on religious grounds; some feel uncomfortable around LGBT people; some just don't want to add to the world's population of drag queens lip-syncing Adele songs.

But those are not the people who killed 50 patrons of the Pulse Nightclub.

Omar Mateen was not part of some larger "we" that includes everyone who is less than fully supportive of gays. He wasn't radicalized by the Westboro Baptist Church. He wasn't radicalized by 1950s frat boys. He wasn't radicalized by RuPaul. He was an individual who was apparently radicalized by an Islamic preacher who suggests that killing homos-xuals is an act of mercy.

Obama and Clinton skated around the topic, giving nicely-prepared speeches about "this is not who we are." Trump was willing to say, "You and your religious beliefs are not welcome in America if they require or encourage you to kill the people who live here."

Some people interpreted that message as racist or Islamophobic. But it made sense to a lot of people who are not so tolerant that they'll tolerate the slaughter of fellow citizens.

Laiya

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 2:33 pm

youngishbear wrote:

I get that. לב מלכים ושרים ביד ה

I know that his actions will all be part of Hashem's plan. I am not worried for my future or nuclear war, etc.

I'm concerned about what this national decision says about us, the choosers, the people with a bechira. The country's fate is in Hashem's hands, no matter the leader, but our choice in the voting booth says something about us that is too ugly for words.

And it hurts. And makes me feel ashamed. And so sad.

I find this so baffling.

Trump has run his mouth, true. And if you don't like him, I totally get that and respect it (I voted for him but dh did not).

But Hillary is a crook; she cut deals with America's enemies solely to line her own pockets. She used her political connections to do it.

It's sickening, and no one other than a Clinton or other democratic "elites" could have gotten away with it.

And she shouldn't have, but she got improper help from the dnc, who broke their own rules to ensure that Hillary would be their nominee.

The trail of lies and corruption surrounding her is endless.

Again, I get not liking Trump.

But since we had to pick between the two, I can't understand where this feeling of shame comes from.

chaiz

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 2:52 pm

Fox wrote:

I understand that and mostly agree with you. But that is not the way the left saw it and from the little I gleaned from real life people who identify as LGBTQ as well. So I am not sure how the left threw the LGBT community under the bus.

Fox

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 3:17 pm

chaiz wrote:

But that is not the way the left saw it and from the little I gleaned from real life people who identify as LGBTQ as well. So I am not sure how the left threw the LGBT community under the bus.

The left basically pretended that an existential threat to LGBT individuals was something that it was not. Instead of blaming radical Islam, they blamed softer targets like, "homophobia" and "toxic masculinity." They signalled that they would prefer to see LGBT people killed than forcefully condemn radical Islam.

I think the LGBT community is hugely fractured over this. The old-time activists and organizations are still loyal to the progressive left, but just like the AA community, people are tired of being expected to align their politics to their demographic group.

Of course, you always risk having your card revoked. The Advocate, the oldest gay publication in the U.S., recently published an op-ed that Peter Thiel shouldn't be allowed to call himself gay because he holds the "wrong" opinions and isn't adequately invested in gay culture. This was a few weeks ago, but the jokes and memes are still coming. I'm not sure if they avoid printing his picture to shield their readers' sensitivities or not . . . Very Happy

chaiz

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 3:37 pm

Fox wrote:

Interesting that you say that. In a sense I can agree with you. But from the little I gleaned online people who identify as LGBT saw the threat from homophobia. As you say the community is divided. So it could be that there are those who don't feel that Clinton etc. threw them under the bus. There are plenty afraid of Trump because he brought out our worse angels.

Fox

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 3:56 pm

chaiz wrote:

As you say the community is divided.

I think this is the key change in this election, and not just with regard to the LGBT community.

One of the changes in America -- due in part to the progressive left, I might add -- is that identity politics is less and less appealing to people.

Despite the left's carping, people have become more tolerant.

As a result, an Orthodox Jew living in a suburb of Detroit may feel he has more in common with a black minister in his city than he has with a secular Jew living in LA.

A married gay man with kids who lives in the suburbs of Atlanta may feel he has more in common with his straight neighbors than with bicoastal urban gay causes.

A married black woman living in Cleveland may feel she has more in common with rust-belt whites than with blacks in Mississippi.

That's actually a good thing. It means that we are slowly but surely learning to see past superficial differences. I think Trump recognized this change in society and his campaign capitalized on it

Fox

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 4:04 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I'm involved with local and statewide LGBT groups and I don't see any significant divide.

I think this is the important part. Organized groups supported Clinton almost unanimously.

Individuals, though, are a different story. Conservative Twitter and Gab are filled with "I'm gay, but . . . " posts. Most of these people indicate that they are not "out as conservative" to their friends and feel pressured to adopt a progressive leftist stand on politics and culture.

Are they a majority of LGBT-identified individuals? Nah. They're probably a comparatively small minority. They vote, though, and nobody sees who they vote for. More telling is that very few of them voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, or George W. Bush.

amother

Indigo

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 4:16 pm

Fox wrote:

Just 14% of people who identify as gay voted for Trump, according to exit polls. So I think that the idea of a fractured community that turned to Trump is just your own little fantasy. Frankly, I would find it difficult to believe that any large group of gay people would vote for a ticket where one member has stated that gay couples signal "societal collapse," voted against legislation that barred discrimination against gays in employment, opposed marriage equality, and supported the use of public funds for "conversion therapy." Certainly my gay friends and family (albeit not a large sampling) are terrified of a Trump-Pence presidency.

Trump also got only 8% of the black vote; Clinton got 88%. That's substantially more than Romney got (Trump), and less than Obama did (Clinton), but it certainly shows their disaffection with Trump. In that respect, most of my African American friends are college-educated professionals, who were mighty offended by Trump's repeated assumption that all African Americans live in the hood. But, again, its a relatively small cohort.

Trump won because the whites voted for him, particularly in the rust belt. And because he was actually able to attract women voters, notwithstanding his bragging about assaulting women. Not because any minority group held him in anything other than contempt. It was, as Van Jones eloquently put it, a white lash.

Let's hope that Trump rises above his supporters.

Anonymous solely because I have discussed my friends.

gold21

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 4:31 pm

amother wrote:

Well, there you have it- is there something inherently wrong about receiving the white vote? What wrong with having a strong white turnout? Are we unimportant? Are our needs and our struggles unimportant? This is exactly the type of ideology that people are protesting by voting in Trump.

Fox

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

Just 14% of people who identify as gay voted for Trump, according to exit polls. So I think that the idea of a fractured community that turned to Trump is just your own little fantasy.

amother wrote:

Trump also got only 8% of the black vote; Clinton got 88%. That's substantially more than Romney got (Trump), and less than Obama did (Clinton), but it certainly shows their disaffection with Trump.

First of all, exit polls have been giving significantly different results than other polls. The USC/LA Times poll showed Trump with as much as 19 percent of the AA vote. The gay press reports numbers ranging from 12 percent to 25 percent support for Trump.

Now, to be accurate, LGBT support for Trump is made up almost exclusively of gay white men -- another example of the difficulties of identity politics.

Nevertheless, if this is my own little fantasy, I seem to be sharing it with a lot of other people. The gay press is doing a lot of hand-wringing and explaining over all the deplorable gays who voted for Trump.

amother wrote:

Trump won because the whites voted for him, particularly in the rust belt. And because he was actually able to attract women voters, notwithstanding his bragging about assaulting women. Not because any minority group held him in anything other than contempt.

Trump won because he attracted whites in the rust belt without losing too many votes from other groups. Apparently all those white rust belt voters who elected President Obama in 2008 and 2012 were miraculously transformed into white nationalists just in time to vote for Trump.

I completely get why Trump is unappealling. He is boorish and often insulting. I hope he improves. However, the progressive left and the Democratic Party now have a choice. They can pretend that Trump voters are nothing more than bigots and simply demonize them, or they can reflect on the reasons that so many good, tolerant people nevertheless chose to vote for an obviously problematic candidate.

chaiz

Wed, Nov 09 2016, 5:02 pm

Fox wrote:

I completely get why Trump is unappealling. He is boorish and often insulting. I hope he improves. However, the progressive left and the Democratic Party now have a choice. They can pretend that Trump voters are nothing more than bigots and simply demonize them, or they can reflect on the reasons that so many good, tolerant people nevertheless chose to vote for an obviously problematic candidate.

Fox, I really respect you and your views. But I really feel the need to speak out. I do not classify myself as a liberal and do not identify with some of the big issues the left has on their agenda. But how can anyone justify Trump's behavior? That is what is really getting to me. Do not give me this idea of marginalized, underserved, unprivileged people who have been messed up by the system. Plenty of Trump supporters are not that at all. Furthermore, even if they have been messed up by the defending, justifying and whitewashing of some of his crazy behavior is just too much. Holding your nose is not define by claiming that what he did was b'seder. Never mind the sheer hypocrisy of some of the allegations leveled at Hillary.