S/O Disrespecting America...Your Thoughts? Amother Enabled

groisamomma

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 9:11 am

groisamomma wrote:

(My apologies in advance for the long post; I have a lot to say.)

Yesterday morning I would have agreed with you, but since reading the last few pages of the RIGHT to disrespect our flag because someone wants to exercise their freedom pretty much made me lose respect for them and the causes they work for.

A person's actions are influenced by their experiences. Lobbying politicians, advocating for children with special needs, and working hard to protect the availability of healthcare are, in my limited view, admirable and respectful ways to exercise your rights as an American.

Reading about the RIGHT to take a knee during the anthem and to sit quietly during the pledge is a slap in the face to the great country that allows the freedoms we enjoy, to the men and women that died protecting those rights, and to the children born into military families that proudly make sacrifices you don't in order to uphold those rights. (In reference to the poster upthread that said this is not relevant in our lifetime I invite you to meet the many military families that make sacrifices way beyond what you can imagine, yes, in our days, to uphold the rights that disrespectful people enjoy today. Believe it or not, our military includes proud liberals and Hillary supporters that are fighting on our behalf for these same causes.)

Taking for granted the religous freedoms we have in our great country because "it's my RIGHT as an American liberal to disrespect anyone/anything to SHOW what I stand for" is despicable and immature IMHO. These men and women in our military have the right to be way more expressive than you about their rights yet they do not stoop so low as to disrespect our country while doing so.

I was incredulous to read the nonsense that one doesn't stand for the anthem because it isn't a fine musical piece and that one may sit during the pledge well, because, it doesn't talk to me. That shows a sense of entitlement in addition to dulled sensitivity and lack of appreciation in their zeal to "exercise their rights" as an American. No one is asking you to have pride in our country, but ithe appears that basic respect is too much to expect.

I have plenty of students who don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance for religious reasons, children of immigrants who are hurt for their families, and children from minorities that feel like our country isn't doing enough to protect them. I respect and understand that they are adhering to their religion and/or exercising their rights as an American, just as I would want others to respect my children for standing up for their religion and to demonstrate their hurt, should they have any.

But I have NEVER, EVER seen a student from any of those families sit during the Pledge. These are young children that are taught that no matter how much their families disagree with American policies, disrespecting our flag is crossing a line. Especially for the petty reasons you cited. They don't place their hands over their hearts nor recite the pledge but I have NEVER seen them, not at SINGLE event (in school or before games surrounded by their families) sit during the Pledge.

You know what I do see? I see those very immigrants you claim to be fighting on behalf of standing up silently and showing respect to our country. Sometimes in our zeal to fight for a cause we miss the forest for the trees. The very people you claim to be helping don't show disrespect while their zealous advocates take it far enough to act disgracefully and still convince themselves that they are doing it on behalf of these very immigrants and minorities. They know that acting disgraceful toward our country, in public, will only hurt their cause.

Magenta, I invite you to our Veterans Day ceremony today, which celebrates these great men and women and their children, and I would like to watch you "exercise your right" to sit during the pledge and our National Anthem. It's easy to talk from behind a screen, or to do it while surrounded by the same disrespectful people, but I'd like to watch you uphold that right to the faces of these families.

I am horrified that people whom I've respected as educated professionals and compassionate lobbyists would stoop so low, however much they convince themselves that it's for the greater good.

How shameful.

ohmygosh

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 9:24 am

I agree 100%. You have the right to sit during the national anthem.

Westboro Baptist Church also has the right to protest at military funerals.

However, I find both to be disrespectful, shameful, and a chillul Hashem (for a Jew).

youngishbear

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 9:54 am

ohmygosh wrote:

To paraphrase a famous quote (often mistakenly attributed to Voltaire):

"I disagree with how you are expressing yourself, but I will defend to death your right to do so."

Just about sums it up.

groisamomma

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 11:22 am

youngishbear wrote:

To paraphrase a famous quote (often mistakenly attributed to Voltaire):

"I disagree with how you are expressing yourself, but I will defend to death your right to do so."

Just about sums it up.

Very well said!

rfeig613

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 12:51 pm

If you're not nationalist, and if you don't love America, why not leave and go to a country you like better?

youngishbear

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 1:04 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

If you're not nationalist, and if you don't love America, why not leave and go to a country you like better?

I don't like the concept of worshipping a country above all else. I may believe America to be the greatest democracy in the world, but if it weren't a democracy I wouldn't think the same way. So, I love and feel grateful to America because of its freedom. I place one ideal (freedom) above the other (patriotism), and see the danger of a third (extreme nationalism).

I think this is a basic difference in worldview, and we can agree to disagree on this one.

Miri7

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 1:10 pm

I love America for the principles, ideals, and freedoms upon which it is based. To name a few - religious, press, speech, equality under the law.

Those freedoms mean that I'm going to have to deal with being offended by others' exercise of them. So be it. Small price to pay. Democracy and freedom is messy and requires us to be tolerant of others' dissenting views and expressions.

And thank you youngishbear for the quote. Perfect.

ra_mom

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 1:32 pm

Thank you for your post groisamomma! Applause

amother

Blonde

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 1:52 pm

What I find most shocking about MY's viewpoint is that she's open about the fact that she receives government assistance (HUD or Section 8, don't remember, maybe others). How can you take from this country and its taxpayers and have such blatant disrespect for them? That is ultimately ungrateful and shameful. If this country is giving you something - anything! - for nothing, then it would only be decent to express some gratitude - or at least not openly disrespect it!

That's the core issue with so many Hillary supporters, in my opinion. Liberals who are recipients of this country's good but have no respect for it.

I'm no major patriot. I don't recite the Pledge and never did in school, it wasn't part of my upbringing. But to sit during the Pledge or the anthem (and yes, I do know all the words; no, I do not think it's a beautiful piece of music, and I know my music)? Never. I am so grateful to live in a place where we are free in so many ways.

I received government assistance for a short while during a rough patch and I am eternally grateful. My grandparents, who were granted a place to live after their lives were destroyed by the war, were too proud to take anything from the government, but you better believe that they respected this country and were eternally grateful for being permitted to live here.

If you don't have the common decency or gratitude to remain standing during the Pledge or the anthem, you shouldn't expect this country to give anything back to you.

(Anon b/c identifying info and relatives on here...)

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 2:34 pm

I spent two hours yesterday planting flags at two local cemeteries, the same as I do every year and prior to Memorial day. Today I'll meet up with my DD and her Father at my FILs grave out at the farm, something we do every year on Veterans and Memorial day. My FIL was career Navy and served in three wars. During the year I drive local veterans to their medical appointments. Something I've been doing for over ten years.

If you don't like my brand of American you may want to just put me on your ignore list.

And yes I'm on HUD, I get $169 rental assistance. It took over half my retirement savings to get out of an abusive late life marriage, ergo HUD.

And no I'm not leaving this country.

There is only one who can judge me and I seriously doubt that Hashem is posting on Ima.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 2:41 pm

That's beautiful that you do all those things. I'm sorry for your circumstances. (And I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm here.)

I never suggested that you leave the country. I don't intend to put you on my ignore list. This does not affect me personally.

And honestly, I'm not judging. Seriously. It may sound like I am but I am not a judgmental person. I am just trying to wrap my mind around your "brand" of American. Why sit for the anthem? I simply do not understand it. What would the veterans who you drive to appointments think about that?

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 2:47 pm

amother wrote:

The veterans know that I don't stand and I know that they don't stand. It's not a secret.

ETA: Yesterday someone here told me to get out and leave the US.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 2:53 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

If you're not nationalist, and if you don't love America, why not leave and go to a country you like better?

Because I'm not your brand of American I'm supposed to leave? Who says I like another country better? My choice may have not won the election, but it's not the first time in my life that has happened. As an American it's incumbent upon me to support our president elect. I have no desire to see any elected, no less president fail. That's a rather self defeating position to take.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 3:05 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

The veterans know that I don't stand and I know that they don't stand. It's not a secret.

ETA: Yesterday someone here told me to get out and leave the US.

Not me.

Honestly curious, what are your reasons - and the vets' reasons - for not standing? I didn't read much of the other thread but I don't recall seeing a good reason except that it doesn't speak to you.

Also, for the record, it bothered me to no end when the teachers at my chareidi seminary encouraged us to disregard the sirens on Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Hashoah, and I'm no Zionist. I feel that this is the same principle.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 3:36 pm

amother wrote:

The Vets I know that don't stand do it because of their opposition to the wars or draft or the inequities they experienced in military service. I don't stand for any national anthems a I previously stated because I'm not moved by the anthems and I think standing is something that people just do because it's expected of them. I do other things to show my love for our country and ideals. I work in service to others and work to build community where I live. My parents, as immigrants taught that Veterans Day and Memorial day, should be more than a once a year expression of gratitude. They showed their patriotism in acts of service, and I guess that's where I get some of my values and motivation. (Not all, I must remember that their racism was a value I had the freedom to reject.)

Many folks (and some women here) give me the knee jerk response of 'love it or leave it' without thinking of the rights of expression that are protected in the USA. I certainly wouldn't deny them that right of expression, but there is a dissonance when they think that my leaving this country is a way to silence me. I recognize that all of my public expression (both here and in my community) may be subject to criticism. I don't have a problem with that.

sourstix

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 3:55 pm

Magenta thanks for explaining yourself. You go girl, stand up for what's right. We pay a price to have freedom. That's for sure. I was called a self hating Jew today by a family member for believing in what I do. And it's ok. I still believe in what I do. I won't be swayed for being called names. It just means they don't agree. But in an immature way.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 4:04 pm

sourstix wrote:

I think there are better ways to disagree with people that don't include insults, calling people self hating Jews or telling them to leave the country. But that's my opinion and hey this is the internet.

Stay well and be well.

groisamomma

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 4:19 pm

Thank goodness sourstix that I don't call people names or I would be branded as the bully here. Labeling actions? Yes. Not people, however much I disagree with them. And I would never, ever tell anyone to leave the country or "go back where you came from," no matter which nationality, religion, or anything they are. They are here for the same reason I am: to enjoy the freedoms that the USA allows us. They have every right to demand that those freedoms be upheld, but there's a way to do that. I'm not going to chew over all my previous points but you can reread them above.

Magenta, your actions towards our veterans are noble, and I admire you for them. I agree that every day should be Memorial and Veterans Day. That's why I serve as a Military Mentor to children of military families. We owe them that much support and actions speak louder than lip service.

I can see why the vets you know are disenfranchised; the Vietnam and Korean wars affected people that way, as did the draft in those times, and many vets feel that our government abandoned them (which I agree with).

But you know what? I feel that THEY, who selflessly gave to our country, have way more of a right to express their displeasure by not standing during the reciting of the pledge. Do I agree with their way of expressing themselves? I don't condone it but I know that THEY do it because of what they gave our country so I dare say I have sympathy for them and their cause. But you, an American citizen that claims to be fighting on THEIR behalf, has no right to act disrespectfully toward our country. I would be surprised that these vets are raising their children to disrespect our flag.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Nov 11 2016, 4:35 pm

groisamomma wrote:

...
But you know what? I feel that THEY, who selflessly gave to our country, have way more of a right to express their displeasure by not standing during the reciting of the pledge. Do I agree with their way of expressing themselves? I don't condone it but I know that THEY do it because of what they gave our country so I dare say I have sympathy for them and their cause. But you, an American citizen that claims to be fighting on THEIR behalf, has no right to act disrespectfully toward our country. I would be surprised that these vets are raising their children to disrespect our flag.

Thank you for your feelings. I recognize that some here consider my actions disrespectful. This is not news. As to flying the flag, I hoist one ever day, weather permitting. Gotta run

Have a good Shabbos.

mommy3b2c

Sat, Nov 12 2016, 6:02 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

In all fairness, when I said that people who sit during the anthem should leave the country, it never occurred to me that there is actually anyone on this site that would do that.