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Immigration

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rfeig613

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:23 pm

How do you ladies feel about illegal immigration? It's a big inyana d'yoma.

I believe very strongly that allowing people who break the rules to come here rewards lawlessness. and once rule of law disappears, we're living in the tyranny of the Hobbesian state of nature. I also think that it's a scheme to get millions of Democratic voters, and I believe there's a credible national security risk.

Thoughts?

Fox

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:35 pm

I think it's disgraceful when U.S. citizens sneak into Canada, and I have no problem with Prime Minister Trudeau rounding them all up and shipping them to Detroit.

Rubber Ducky

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:44 pm

And Mexico ships their illegals back to Central America...

sourstix

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:45 pm

so many people are in usa illegally. how can you even know who to send back. I happen to know some. but how would the federal govt know that? most of them do a great job laying low. I dont mean the drug dealers. I mean regular everyday normal people. whoe even have a job here.

rfeig613

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:47 pm

sourstix wrote:

The point is that they're violating the law through their very presence here. That's a job that an American possibly could have had. I'm opposed to turning a blind eye to illegality. If we're not serious about enforcing the law, we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the world and a dumping ground.

Fox

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:58 pm

We desperately need immigrant labor, particularly in agriculture and food processing. These are jobs that, frankly, U.S. citizens don't want.

I believe the answer should be a guest-worker program for specific jobs or industries. The short-term permits should be relatively easy for anyone without a criminal background to get, and they would include a fee that would cover the cost of processing and provide a short-term health insurance policy. Obviously, serious criminal convictions while in the U.S. would disqualify someone from receiving a future work permit.

This would put the coyotes out of business; enable us to exert some control over who crosses our borders; provide for the funding; and keep those industries that rely on the labor healthy. It would also facilitate the transfer of money to economies that need it, thus reducing the incentive for even more immigration.

I would also include a path to citizenship for workers who have been successful as guest workers. Our goal shouldn't be stifling immigration; it should be making sure that we investigate the intentions of the people immigrating and do everything possible to make sure they are successful.

sequoia

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:02 pm

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses... except for the Irish. I mean let's face it, Ireland, they're not sending us their best. They're bringing crime, they're bringing beer, they're rapists."

Nothing new.

rfeig613

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:18 pm

sequoia wrote:

How many more can we possibly accomodate here? The immigrants of those days are vastly different than the ones nowadays.

The burden on the welfare system is astounding.

http://www.heritage.org/resear.....payer

SixOfWands

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:38 pm

Background --

There are about 11.1 undocumented immigrants in the US, down about 1 million from 2007. About 2/3 of the adults have been in the US at least a decade. About 8 million are in the US workforce, where they are overrepresented in farming occupations (26%) and construction occupations (15%). About half are from Mexico. Six states accounted for 59% of unauthorized immigrants in 2014: California, Texas, Florida, New York, New Jersey and Illinois. It is estimated that undocumented immigrants pay $12 billion in federal taxes each year. There does not appear to be any correlation between immigrant status (legal or illegal) and crime.

Does that mean that we should open the doors and let everyone in? Of course not. But it also does not mean that the US should spend $600 billion to remove all undocumented aliens.

First, we need to address the issue of the people who are here, and who have largely been here for a long time. I don't necessarily disagree that the "real" criminals -- not people who were picked up for shoplifting a loaf of bread, or speeding -- should be subject to being deported. In fact, Obama did that for 8 years, over a lot of opposition. (Obama deported more people than any other president. I'm not sure why people are looking to him for salvation.) But there should be a path to citizenship, or at least documented status, for people who have been here and who are responsible residents. Does that reward the originally illegal behavior? Maybe. But we're faced with a problem now; we need to deal with it. "Sending them back" isn't really feasible. And continued living in fear isn't a good idea.

We need a more sensible immigration policy, and particularly one that allows farm workers to come to the US seasonally, and return to Mexico or Central America when they want. Tightening the borders had the unintended effect of forcing workers to stay in the US, when they didn't really want to.

We need to allow in more refugees, subject to investigation where necessary.

No single group should ever be singled out as dangerous or undesirable.

leah233

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:52 pm

I'm ambivalent. Knowing that one set of my grandparents would not have been murdered in the holocaust had there been more lenient immigration laws and that my other set of grandparents would have been murdered too had immigration laws been around before the early 1920s, I find it difficult to be overly anti immigration. Even illegal immigration. On the other hands I realize the problems illegal immigrants bring to the US.

Therefore my opinion on immigration is (1) no immigrant can receive federal assistance for the first 20 years they are here (2)an immigrant committing a crime should be in major danger of deportation.(3)Children of illegal immigrants born here are not automatic citizens (4)illegal immigrants should face deportation but first they should be given the right to make a argument as to why they deserve to stay. Either on humanitarian grounds or because they are an asset to this country.

Last edited by leah233 on Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

SuperWify

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:53 pm

there are a lot of upstanding indivuals who don't deserve to be sent back. My DH for example. He is no burden to the state- BH we have income+ support. He is offically illegal as we are in the lenghty process of obtaining a green card for him. He was once detained with a bunch of drug dealers and terriosts and then sent back, for over-staying his green card while single in yeshiva here. Now every time he comes he goes through a lenghty interrigation like a regular criminal.
Please don't send him back!

SixOfWands

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 1:57 pm

SuperWify wrote:

I don't think that he should be deported.

But I have no reasonable basis upon which to differentiate him from a Mexican immigrant.

SuperWify

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:00 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I don't think that he should be deported.

But I have no reasonable basis upon which to differentiate him from a Mexican immigrant.

Thanks, but how can the goverment differntiate between the two without discriminating? (BTW I am BH not worried about this as by the time the law will have passed my DH will have his green card- maybe even citizenship?- or at the very least be a father to an American child iyH.)

SixOfWands

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:06 pm

SuperWify wrote:

They can't. That's the point. Nor should they.

That's why we need to address the facts on the ground, not the facts as we wish they were. People are here. They have lives. Jobs. Homes. Families. We need to deal with that.

rfeig613

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:16 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I'll pose the following thought experiment.

Let's say Bill, a non-Jew, decides one day that he wants the benefits of being in a Jewish community. Gemach access, free meals, free lodging, parnassa, tzedakah, free clothing, free medical, a real nice gravy train. Bill one day moves into Flatbush, tries to pass as a Jew, and meanwhile, has no papers. He manages to skirt the legal process in his desire to become part of a new society.

Now, as a frum person, you think it's awful that someone is an infiltrator. He's not legally entitled to be among klal yisroel, but he still chaps all the ribbis, all the perks. He skirts the legal process that could otherwise render him eligible for all the goodies, yet he figures, why bother, since nobody is going to investigate him before helping him.

You see, if you want to become part of a nation, there's a process of naturalization and legalization that you must udnergo to legitimately become part of that people.

It's the same by America. Sure, they can come here, work off the books, and drop babies here, who get all sorts of benefits, due to the 14th Amendment. Nice loophole that will bankrupt the country even further.

These people are invaders. Mexico deports illegals in their country. It's high time we do the same, and restore the rule of law. The supremacy clause of the Constitution gives President Trump the right to bring charges against any uncooperative mayors.

sequoia

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:20 pm

What on earth are you talking about? Jews don't get any of that stuff for free. Sure, there are perks of being part of a community, but free lodging?! Say what?! And here everyone is complaining about rent prices in Brooklyn. Too bad we didn't know about all the "free lodging" we're entitled to as Jews. Free medical care? Medicaid is for anyone who qualifies, Jew or non-Jew.

rfeig613

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:25 pm

sequoia wrote:

There are chesed committees that will not let a Yid go on the streets. There are frum doctors that take on charity care cases. Our community is infinitely more generous towards our own than other communities are.

SixOfWands

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:41 pm

rfeig613 wrote:

So, are you saying that SuperWify's husband should be immediately deported from the United States? Particularly since she is considering "dropping a baby" here some time in the near future.

Or is it only people with brown skin you're so concerned about? (I assume her husband doesn't have brown skin. I could be wrong.)

In any case, studies show that you're just wrong about undocumented immigrants taking advantage of US handouts. The Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy's study found that individuals lacking legal permission to be in the U.S. consistently receive lower wages than their immigrant counterparts who are in the country legally, which inherently limits how much they pay in terms of income taxes. The report estimates the average income of an "undocumented family" is a little more than $30,000, well below the country's median household income of around $54,000, according to the Census Bureau. However, when looking at the share of total income paid in taxes, the institute's report estimates the average tax rate for immigrants in the country illegally is higher than the rate paid by America's top earners. "Undocumented immigrants' nationwide average effective tax rate is an estimated 8 percent," the report said. "To put this in perspective, the top 1 percent of taxpayers pay an average nationwide effective tax rate of just 5.4 percent."

So, IOW, undocumented workers are paying a higher effective tax rate than our president-elect.

And undocumented immigrants can receive schooling and emergency medical care, but not (legally) receive welfare or food stamps. Some do, simply because they're not asked their immigration status. But its not certain. So your whole scenario falls apart.

SuperWify

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:51 pm

FYI, my DH doesnt take a penny from the US. He actually is not qualified for food stamps, hud ect. that most kollel couples get bec he is here on a visa. So I don't know how people here illegally get help. Actually, it makes it better for the goverment that he is here, bec they do not count him as part of my household and I make "way" too much money for 1 person so we get zero benefits, as I would have gotten had I been married to an American. The only program we are on is JerseyCare insurance now that I am preganant, but that has nothing to do with him.
I am sure glad you guys are not deciding his fate!

WhatFor

Wed, Nov 16 2016, 2:56 pm

What I've found that a lot of people don't know is that for many (technically most) foreign nationals, there's no way for them to legally immigrate or even enter the US. It's not like there's a legal pathway that they're skirting- they simply have the option of not entering, or entering illegally.
This matters because most of us have associations with someone who does something "illegal" as someone who's doing something morally wrong. We know, however, that it's also possible for someone to do something that's moral while simultaneously breaking the law. For example, someone who harbored Jews in Germany in 1944 was both moral and breaking the law. So it's not the case that someone who is breaking the law is necessarily bad or doing something morally wrong.
To people who are anti immigration, this nuance is irrelevant. The attitude is, it's illegal and they have no right to enter our country no matter how dismal things are in their hometown. If local drug cartels are grabbing their children into gangs and shooting their mayors and law enforcement, that's not our problem and they still have no right to try to bring their children here for a better future.
As a human being, particularly as a Jew, I take issue with the attitude of "send them back, not our problem." Most people who entered illegally had to undergo grueling and trying circumstances to get here- that alone points to their tenacity and their ability to contribute to our country.
Of course we require a vetting process. But this notion that they immigrants harm more than help our country is contrary to traditional American values.

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