Immigration | Imamother

rfeig613

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 7:56 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Just to understand what you are saying ...

On a regular basis, we read posts here from women seeking food stamps or other assistance, Medicaid, and Section 8 housing. It is your position that these families, including those with husbands in kollel, should move to California or Texas and become itinerant farm workers? I'm curious, because I've never seen those thoughts expressed in the threads I've read. Shouldn't you be telling them how you feel?

The gemara in Avodah Zarah says that he who works erev shabbos eats on shabbos. All the tanaim and amoraim had jobs. Rashi was a vintner, Rambam a doctor, etc. You need people to work in order for a society to function. Life is not about getting handouts. My father says that a vast majority of guys in kollel shouldn't be there, and that in Europe, it was reserved for metzuyanim.

WhatFor

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 7:57 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Yeah that's what I was wondering, I'm no expert but I thought getting a green card was a relatively simple process when you marry an American citizen.

In theory, if you have no record, and you're not from a country that's a source for a lot terrorists, it is typically very simple. If you do have a record (prior arrests, deportation) that's when it gets more complicated. It's not a "right" to become a lawful permanent resident ("get a green card") or to become a US citizen ("naturalize"). While the adjudicators of these applications certainly have to abide by regulations and guidance, there's some degree of discretion involved.
Non citizens can be denied at any stage for various reasons. The fact that her dh was previously deported is likely a factor here, and one also wonders what they charged him with when deporting him because that can also play a role. (The poster said that he was locked up with a bunch is criminals and terrorists, but the truth is how does she know that? These foreign nationals could have been in the same boat as her DH, although their skin color may have looked different. People are not entitled to attorneys in deportation proceedings (which is considered a civil and not a criminal matter, although some cities/states have been trying to assist with this in recent years) so how could anyone know what anyone in that cell actually did before they were deported?)

rfeig613

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 8:02 am

SuperWify wrote:

I wonder if that is true (that he won't be deported bec we are in the process of obtaining a green card). Our lawyer said not to take chances and leave the country until we have the green card, even though we were approved for travel documents.
My DH once overstayed his travel visa (his yeshiva did not have student visas) while learning in Yeshiva bec his rebbim said not to go home. When he tried to come back after Pesach he was detained and then sent back. He waited 11 months before he was able to try again to apply for a student visa and he flew into Belfast just to get the visa. BH he was allowed back in, and shortly after we met and married. We went to visit my in-laws once before applying for his green card. We married just 4 weeks and he told me, "honey, it might take a liitle longer until I get thru security." Little did I know what I was in for. I breezed thru security and went to claim my bags (which, of all times, came right away) I waited with 3 siutcases fir him. Slowly, the airport starting emptying out (it was at night) and soon it was only me and a few black porters who kept asking me if I need help. I somehow shlepped the 3 suitcases to an elevator to go back up to security. I asked the guy if he knew anything and he told me to leave. I started crying but he was unmoved. My DH was now stuck there for 45 mins. I went back downstairs. I tried calling my parents but my phone was dead. finally, after about an hour he came out. He said he was interrigated for 45 minutes straight!....
The next day we applied for his green card. Finally, 4 months later we got a letter that we were approved for an interview (in which they question us seperatly to make sure we are really married) but it was to be on simchas torah. We canceled it (ovbs)and held our breaths for the next one. Just this week, when I was about giving up we received a letter with a new interview date BH. So that means- if all goes well- we will have his green card very soon.
Sorry for this lenghty ramble, I am just stressed abt this. Trust me, before I married a Brit I didn't want immagrants either. Now I think we should heavily screen those that come in to make sure they aren't terriosts, criminals. or drug dealers but the rest can stay!

Why is it that people who otherwise try to do everything 100% mehadrin, lifnim mishuras hadin, in terms of kashrus, niddah, shabbos, etc, often are the first ones to take all sorts of liberties when it comes to Choshen Mishpat, in this case, Dina d'Malchusa? It's better to just do things 100% and not skirt these laws.

Fox

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 8:25 am

At least in the Jewish community, we need to do a lot more to educate people that immigration is a serious matter. I've known of several cases where a bochur from Europe, Mexico, or South America overstayed a student visa or took some kind of job that he wasn't strictly allowed to take. One of my DH's friends failed to complete the necessary paperwork for his wife to come from Europe.

The problem is that many of these so-called offenses don't have repercussions at the time. They may only become a problem years later when the person tries to obtain permanent residency or citizenship. All of a sudden, a seemingly innocuous mistake or carelessness puts you into a whole new category.

Young people -- bochrim learning in another country or girls spending a year here or there -- need to understand that being a foreign national in any country is not a place for heimishness. Fill out the paperwork and in the words of Chris Rock, "Obey the law." Get an immigration attorney before you make a mess of things.

rfeig613

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 8:26 am

ectomorph wrote:

I support the kollel system. My husband works, but we donate to kollelim regularly. We believe the zechus of the learning Torah supports the world ,and the more people who do it - kein yirbu!

That said, I do not like any situation where the community relies on the non Jewish government in order to live. ג'י השוחד יעבר עיני פקחים ויסלף דברי צדיקים.

However, I believe that Hashem will provide when the government ceases to.
I support legal immigration

I agree. I do think kollel should be only for a select few, though. People with real potential to be roshei yeshiva and gedolim.

Welfare and dependance on others is profoundly unJewish. Rambam says the highest madreiga of tzedakah is helping others become self-sufficient.

I think Jews accepting welfare is a big shonda and a chillul hashem. Some poskim say taking welfare is ok, since the tax money is taken from both Jews and non-Jews, but the problem with that is that non-Jews pay the bulk of taxes, since we're such a small percentage of the population.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:31 am

SuperWify wrote:

My DH was not married to me @ the time he overstayed his visa. (If he was he would have applied for a green card then) I dont "think it's ok to take liberties with our laws" as you say. he asked a shailah and he was told to stay.
he wasnt selling drugs, stealing or raping girls.
he was learning.
End of story.

The answer to his shailah was WRONG! What would he do if his rav asked him to take a suitcase full of cash over the border, and told him it was crucial for the receiver to get it tax free? What if he asked him to rob a bank? Laws are laws for a reason.

I think it's horrible that immigration is closed to certain countries, and I think it's horrible that the paperwork is so daunting. Many refugees can't even read, and they deserve help with the process. They also deserve legal representation when facing deportation proceedings. If being undocumented is illegal, then it should be handled by criminal courts and due process, not a civil court. This should be the first wave of sweeping reform.

A separate problem is people who come in on tourist, work or student visas, and just decide to stay. There is no way to track them down afterward, so there is no serious incentive for them to obey the law. That will be the second wave of reform, and I'll be curious to see how it gets handled.

ectomorph

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:41 am

Fox wrote:

yup. At least the saga of the bochurim in Japan made people get serious about checking packages. We don't chalila want a similar situation to teach us about immigration.

WhatFor

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:02 am

Superwify- I hope my posts aren't coming across as unsympathetic. I truly feel for you and your dh.
You're right. He broke a law but he's not a rapist or a criminal necessarily causing harm to other people (unless one argues that he's stealing jobs but that's generally questionable since immigrants more often than not bring business as well as contribute to flourishing societies.)

The crux of your defense of your dh, in a way also goes to FF's point about why deportation proceedings don't entitle an individual to an attorney.

Some philosophical background: there are certain crimes that are considered malum in se- inherently wrong, and certain crimes that are malum prohibitum- they are not inherently wrong, but they are wrong because they violate a legal prohibition.
Attacking and mugging an old woman- most of us would agree is malum in se. It's wrong in and of itself. Most of us don't need a law to tell us that. It harms another person and it's bad.
Someone who goes over a certain line in violation of a law that says "you may not go over that line if you don't have this ticket" is not necessarily doing something that's malum in se, but it's malum prohibitum. It's wrong because it's in violation of a law.

I think (but I'm sure there are exceptions) that generally civil violations are malum prohibitum, and criminal violations are malum in se. Civil violations tend to come with fines and slaps on the wrist, and criminal violations can come with prison time, and in some places, the death penalty.

Loosely, the sixth amendment entitles people to attorneys when they are accused of a crime that can lead to prison time (I believe of sixth months or more, but not certain). A violation of immigration laws (by itself- not referring to criminal violations that are also in violation of immigrant status) is generally considered a civil offense. Deportation is not considered the same as prison time. People facing deportation are not entitled to an attorney under the sixth amendment. And they're not being put in prison. They're being held in "detention centers". See the difference? /s

FF- if you want to be really horrified, Google Dilley, Texas detention center. This is a for- profit business. ICE just renewed a contract in October with a private company to keep running a detention center that holds women and children who came across the border.

WhatFor

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:23 am

SuperWify wrote:

I'm not offended. I do think the goverment is spending too much time nit-picking on the average joe- who just wants to live in America peacefully-but then let's terriosts and drug dealers live here with full benefits

Most foreign nationals who come here are just like your husband and want to live here peacefully. I don't believe that our government is granting terrorists and drug dealers full benefits in our country either. We do have screening processes in place. (I think our greater concern is homegrown terrorism since it's much easier to weed out terrorists at entry.)

I do believe that certain groups, particularly xenophobic ones, hype up the threat of foreign nationals, and that's why you believe that we're in such danger from those people but not your dh. Just realize that when people talk about "illegal immigrants" they're talking about your dh as well. There are thousands of wives out there like you, with
dhs who overstayed their visas. I feel for all of you and I'm sorry that you're struggling with this.

SuperWify

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:26 am

WhatFor wrote:

FYI he is currently legal with a student visa. But thanks

33055

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:32 am

WhatFor wrote:

Calling people concerned about immigration xenophobic is a big mistake that Bill Clinton tried to rectify with Hillary Clinton's campaign. To quote from his presidential campaign, "It is the economy, stupid."

If these same illegal immigrants brought me $3000 to $4000 extra dollars a year, I would be welcoming them with open arms and looking for more.

rfeig613

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 11:29 am

WhatFor wrote:

Accusing patriots of xenophobia is a false construct.

Some come seeking economic opportunity but have no desire to break ties with their own country. This is observable in the demonstrations held by Latinos seeking amnesty. Some carry Mexican flags and signs proclaiming what they believe the U.S. owes them. The second-largest source of income in Mexico derives from remittances sent from the United States. So-called paths to citizenship have not met with an enthusiastic reception.

Others, in turn, come for more nefarious reasons. Members of the Mexican Reconquista movement, including the National Will Organization, Mexica movement, and La Voz de Aztlan, seriously wish to reclaim the lands lost by Mexico in the Mexican War, as well as other states with high Hispanic populations. These would include California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, and Colorado.

Other advocates of multiculturalism, including foreign nationals, religious sects, and cults, seek to reduce the United States to colonial status for their own purposes. Just as radical Islamists in the United Kingdom and elsewhere are advocating the imposition of Sharia Law on the population, some here seek the same end.

Even where the intention is not initially malicious, multiculturalism can have problematic results. National and other groups that choose to live apart from the mainstream, retaining their own language, culture, and customs, frequently experience serious problems in the second generation. Raised in an extremely restrictive environment but unavoidably exposed to American ideas, these young people develop severe identity problems. As with earlier immigrant groups, the result frequently takes the form of antisocial behavior and gang membership. This trend is observable from the multiple ethnic gangs of early organized crime, down to the drug cartels of the present day.

Everyone is not really seeking the same things. No other myth is more insidious than the one world philosophy that has impacted not only the immigration debate, but also our foreign policy for over half a century. Traditionally, people who came to America in pursuit of a better life assimilated into the American mainstream. Defining themselves along similar lines, they shared many of the same values and goals. As a result of that experience, it has become very easy for Americans to project the idea of mutual tolerance and communality worldwide. Like the dream of a united nations, this has along been a favorite mantra of those on the left.

The wishful thinking that all nations are somehow equal and that we all desire the same things is naïve on the face of it and deadly in its implementation. The individual who murders his daughter in an honor killing; the family that celebrates the martyrdom of children who destroyed themselves while killing innocent people; or the tribe whose members practice genocide against its neighbors are not going to be satisfied with a good job, a nice house, education for their children, and a wide-screen HDTV.

Those who project a rosy vision of world brotherhood play into the hands of fanatics. Our concern for others, including future immigrants, will be best-demonstrated in securing our borders and insuring our survival as the seat of freedom.