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Financial dispute with yeshiva summer camp
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 11:48 am
SixOfWands wrote:
OP, do you have any younger children who might attend the yeshiva camp? If so, ask about splitting the difference with them by way of a reduced fee next summer for the younger child.


Outstanding idea! The camp probably can't afford to refund the money. While you can and should seek a beis din with experience in such matters, it might be preferable to offer a solution like this.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:09 pm
Chayalle wrote:

One of my siblings had an example of Ones, totally different: she registered her child in a particular daycamp for the summer. She actually did not pre-pay - she just paid a deposit. During the first week, her child had an appointment one day. She brought the child to the daycamp late - came in and found the woman's 11 year old daughter watching the entire group with no adult on the premises, as the woman had run out to perform a quick errand.

My sister pulled her child out of the daycamp, as this was not within her comfort zone and it had not been stipulated that the woman would leave an 11 year old in charge. The woman felt that by pulling out my sister owed her the balance of the fee. Sis asked a sheila and was told she did not owe them any money, since she was forced to pull out by her lack of comfort with the childcare, and that one could assume that registering a child with a married woman presumes that that women is in charge at all times, or hires someone similarly aged..... L'Halacha she could have demanded her deposit back, but she chose not to make it an issue.


That's not ones; that's mekach ta'us! She paid for the camp expecting adult supervision at all times and was given something else instead.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:10 pm
It's really not so mentchlich to pull out 3 days before camp Sad but I'm sorry for your hassle Sad
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:23 pm
goodmorning wrote:
That's not ones; that's mekach ta'us! She paid for the camp expecting adult supervision at all times and was given something else instead.


I've heard situations where if someone was moving and had to pull out of a playgroup, they might not have to pay.....in all situations, it's a good idea to ask a sheila.

I don't know why the OP is so reluctant to ask. We are not talking about thousands of dollars here, and the Halacha is probably pretty clear cut as others have posted. I don't think in such a situation it would be so involved that the OP needs to worry so much about getting a clear psak fairly quickly.

As I posted, I once had a shaila involving Lakewood's biggest school. The Rav I asked paskened very succinctly, and the school accepted what he said without further ado. Different situation, but similar in outline.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 5:34 pm
amother wrote:
Dh believes (and I agree with him) that if we ask our rav or a community posek, that they will be reluctant to pasken against a very well know neighborhood yeshiva. Even if I don't name the camp, since most people in our area send to 1 of 2 yeshiva camps, the posek would figure that it's a well known established yeshiva on the other side of this argument. And I believe that would influence the psak.


If you believe that, you need to move or find a different rav! I've been in a financial dispute with one of the most prominent school owners in Lakewood (for a professional matter, not a tuition dispute) and the Bais Hora'ah ruled in my favor.

If you don't respect your rav enough to believe that he would rule impartially based on halacha, then why do you respect him enough to be your rav?
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amother
Azure


 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 6:21 pm
debsey wrote:
If you believe that, you need to move or find a different rav! I've been in a financial dispute with one of the most prominent school owners in Lakewood (for a professional matter, not a tuition dispute) and the Bais Hora'ah ruled in my favor.

If you don't respect your rav enough to believe that he would rule impartially based on halacha, then why do you respect him enough to be your rav?



He's our rav becuase he's very warm, gives fantastic and interesting shiurim, and can be relied on for shailos. I don't believe I'm the only one who feels that even a prominent rav might feel a little pressure not to take the side against other rabbanim or yeshivos. The halacha says that a karov, (relative) is posul as a witness. The reason is because bais din has to consider the possibility that he will be swayed to favor his relative regardless of the evidence. Same is true if the witness is a talmud chacham. He is pasul on account that he will be influenced by his personal relationship.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 6:42 pm
amother wrote:
He's our rav becuase he's very warm, gives fantastic and interesting shiurim, and can be relied on for shailos. I don't believe I'm the only one who feels that even a prominent rav might feel a little pressure not to take the side against other rabbanim or yeshivos. The halacha says that a karov, (relative) is posul as a witness. The reason is because bais din has to consider the possibility that he will be swayed to favor his relative regardless of the evidence. Same is true if the witness is a talmud chacham. He is pasul on account that he will be influenced by his personal relationship.


I personally would trust my rav to recuse himself from a case where he feels he might be biased. My rav is my moral exemplar! If I didn't trust him to be ehrliche, how could I trust him to pasken anything at all?

You do have the option of calling a professional Bais Hora'ah in any city and asking for a psak, if you're really worried about undue influence.

I can only tell you that in my case, when I had a fairly major monetary dispute with a very prominent person in Lakewood (someone who no one in their right mind would offend), the Bais Hora'ah handled it very professionally and were very unbiased. They did rule in my favor,and I'm definitely the "little guy" in that situation. In another situation, I had a monetary dispute with another person where we are both equal in terms of status (neither of us have mega bucks or own any major institutions!), the psak came out against me and I just had to accept it. If the halacha says I'm not entitled to certain money, even if I feel that logically or emotionally I am, I don't want that money!
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:58 pm
From my understanding, that is most camps policy- no refund. It's not like you signed your son up on a weekly basis; he was signed up with the intention of going for that half. Why should the camp lose out on money because you changed your mind?
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