Minorities committing more crimes?

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 11:59 am

Some people think minorities are more likely to commit crimes.

Very often, however, people do not think about the other factors that play in to these numbers. For example, jury members can be bigoted and vote to convict based in part on a defendant's ethnicity. In other words, they disregard the facts in favor of prejudice.

If you think this happens infrequently, I offer you this case pending before the United States Supreme Court this term: The Rodriguez case features a Hispanic man convicted of s-xual assault. A jury member, a police man, admitted that, during deliberations, he told the group that he felt the man was guilty because he was Mexican and Mexicans take whatever they want.

And the all the lower courts allowed- as a matter of law - for this verdict to stand, because jury deliberations are considered sacred, not to be second guessed under any circumstances. The only recourse this person had was to fight, for years, all the way up to the Supreme Court, which almost always rejects cases that people file. It is very unusual that the Court even accepted this case for deliberation.

So when you think of minorities who are more likely to commit crimes, think about all the minority defendants who didn't or couldn't fight their sentences all the way to the Supreme Court. Think about all the cases the Court declined to hear. Think about how much racism on a jury our system allows and then maybe you can start thinking about how the numbers you see reflect not guilt, but at least some juror bias.

https://www.washingtonpost.com......html

shooting star

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 12:25 pm

So, in the Toronto area there is a specific minority group that likely does commit more crimes in at least one area. I say likely as I got the information from a relative who is in the police force and who is not racist but just stating the facts of what he was witnessing at work in one part of the city. From what he was saying, he actually sounded a bit surprised (he didn't grow up in that area).

We are big into multi-cultural-ism here and don't have the same history and culture as the US. Some of the high crime areas in/around Toronto do have more of specific minority groups so statistically, it may be true but I can't confirm. Also, the word "minority" here is relative because we have lots of immigrants. Often people are surprised to hear that my grandparents were born in Canada because this not too common in a lot of Toronto area communities since there was so much immigration in recent years.

I suggest that there could be some truth to racial profiling but I know that its not politically correct.

Last edited by shooting star on Thu, Nov 24 2016, 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

zohar

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 12:25 pm

I have to look up the exact studies, but minorities in urban areas are actually under prosecuted. (Something like 50% of murders are committed by black males even though they make up 13% of the general population) Probably due to the under policing in those communities. I do not believe that the melanin levels in a person cause him or her to commit crimes. That is racist. However, in communities and cultures where there aren't fathers and parental involvement in education, where there is low policing and an unsafe environment, there is a much higher risk of kids growing up to act criminally.

amother

Pink

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 12:34 pm

marina wrote:

The point is that the numbers you rely on for the first part of the above quote are falsely skewed because of the second part of your quote.

No. My opinion of minorities isn't based on statistics.

The reason I think minorities commit more crime is because of personal dealings with them and driving through their neighborhoods. Walking isn't safe of course so you only drove.

I grew up near a minority neighborhood and everyone knew to stay away. And had horror stories of those who went in by foot. And when white flight happened the big talking self righteous liberals didn't stick around either.

Nothing to do with statistics.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 1:51 pm

zohar wrote:

“A 1994 Justice Department survey of felony cases from the country’s 75 largest urban areas discovered that blacks actually had a lower chance of prosecution following a felony than whites did and that they were less likely to be found guilty at trial. Following conviction, blacks were more likely to receive prison sentences, however – an outcome that reflected the gravity of their offenses as well as their criminal records.”

This is an interesting data point and I thank you for posting it, even though your quote was lifted from a biased source.

I think, however, this data point is a misleading one.

Jury compositions, of course, are based on the defendant's county. Minorities are more likely to live in areas with more minorities and whites are more likely to live in areas with more whites.

So a white guy is more likely to have a mostly white jury and a black guy is more likely to have a black jury. If so, the above data makes perfect sense, convictions may be similar or even slightly lower for minorities.

We are, however, considering those situations where the jury is mixed for a black defendant. Here, racial bias will inevitably play a role. In light of this Supreme Court case, it is apparent that racial bias on a jury has always been protected by the legal system- which is pretty awful if you think about it.

Of course, this presidential election has also shown that many people are willing to overlook bigoted attitudes in favor of some other benefit.

In other words, when you're looking at the overall statistics that indicate that minorities commit a larger percent of the crime, you are inevitably including data from mixed-race juries which are much more likely to be biased than all minority juries. This data contributes to the overall impression that minority crimes are disproportionate to their population and it is a number inevitably affected by race.

In other words, if you eliminate mixed race juries from the number in your quote, your numbers will change.

And this is all completely aside from the statistical data directly showing that black pple are more likely to be arrested for the same crimes and get harsher sentences with the same criminal history and for the same offense. So that line about gravity of offenses and history is completely inaccurate- the studies already held those constant.

Last edited by marina on Thu, Nov 24 2016, 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 1:54 pm

amother wrote:

I feel your pain, but we can't. We just can't generalize from our own experiences to millions of people. I also lived in a poor urban city and I had to try hard not to generalize because when I moved out and saw suburbia, I saw how different it was.

For example, I personally have had horrible experiences with orthodox rabbis. Many were rude, unethical, and just plain nuts. I have so many examples if you'd like. But it would be completely wrong if I decided that ALL orthodox rabbis were like that or all orthodox people in general. That would be a prejudiced perspective.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 1:58 pm

zohar wrote:

Also, did you know that males make up more than 90% of the us prison population? Is this because we have a misanderist justice system, our maybe because most crimes are committed by males?

Is there any data showing that men are unfairly arrested or sentenced? That when women and men commit the same crime, men are more arrested while women are let off the hook? Any data suggesting mixed juries can be biased and that this bias will be completely accepted by the justice system? If so, I'd be very interested and so would the rest of the planet.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 2:01 pm

amother wrote:

This post is just plain silly. To suggest minorities aren't involved in more crime and the statistics are just the result of racism is a pretty pathetic argument. As someone mentioned, 50% of murders even though they are only 13% of the population and your suggesting racist white people? Hashem yirachem.

My points directly address your position. There are several reasons that crimes are disproportionate and jury bias is one of them. Biased jurors are protected by the system.

I urge you to think about what I said and respond with something more substantial than "that's silly and pathetic." Because calling someone's argument silly and pathetic will not usually have the effect you're looking for.

Dandelion1

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 2:36 pm

I think for the most part, as a whole, you will be hard pressed in this day and age to find normal people who associate skin color with genetic predisposition toward goodness or badness. In other words, aside from some extremist nutcases, I think that the word racism is oftentimes misused and in threads like this we are having 2 different conversations.

A more accurate word might be something like "culturalism" or "groupism" . People associate certain groups with higher levels of crime. If there is indeed more crime amongst certain groups, and in certain neighborhoods, it is because of many historical factors, such as past centuries of true discrimination and hatred based on physical differences, slavery and brutality, segregation, systemic disenfranchisement, no access to education and jobs, lowered socioeconomics, etc. Basically the destruction and havoc that real racism wreaked upon this society.

I don't see how denying that certain communities are suffering the effects of this historical brutality and mistreatment is proof of "not being a racist." These communities are suffering in real and profound ways, and I don't believe that denial is helpful in correcting past ills. It just seems like another form of characterization, more "racism."

33055

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 2:41 pm

marina wrote:

Biased Judges, biased prosecutors, biased cops, biased defense attorneys, biased witnesses, biased legislators all contribute to the problem. If the truth were well known about biased Judges, our legal system would be seriously undermined. I have a special anger when cases are unfairly decided because a judge signals their contempt before all the evidence is in. Judges also know how to write up their decisions so they are not appealable by saying so and so is not credible. Try appealing that.

It is my opinion that there is still more underlying crimes among minorities.

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 2:47 pm

marina wrote:

I reported for jury duty and they were picking a jury for a murder trial of a black man, the defendant was also a black man. The lawyer were being very thorough in weeding out people with biases. That is part of the defendants lawyers job, to pick out a fair jury.

MrsDash

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

Well I grew up IN a minority neighborhood. We didn't need to drive in our car to throw out the trash. Gosh it's not like it shows in Hollywood. Most people are just living their lives. Were there drug dealings and stabbings and police helicopters flying overhead looking for criminals? Absolutely. But that wasn't a daily occurrence. It didn't prevent me from riding my bike or walking to the bus stop for school.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 4:33 pm

marina wrote:

But you're not substantiating your argument with any actual data except that one story. Is that a basis to believe that racism is the reason for the incredible disproportion of black incarcerations vs white incarcerations? And how many rabbi's have you had bad experiences with? 3? 4? 5? Your sample size is way to small to assume anything about all rabbi's. The fact that year after year 13% of blacks are arrested for 50% of violent crimes is statistically significant. Is there some racist and prejudiced courts that wrongfully convict blacks? Probably. But I can't agree that it is the reason why the data shows what it does about blacks.