Minorities committing more crimes?

zohar

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 4:48 pm

marina wrote:

Is there any data showing that men are unfairly arrested or sentenced? That when women and men commit the same crime, men are more arrested while women are let off the hook? Any data suggesting mixed juries can be biased and that this bias will be completely accepted by the justice system? If so, I'd be very interested and so would the rest of the planet.

I just want to point out to you that you have provided exactly 0 data on these questions regarding minorities. I am actually using actual data proving that minorities are under prosecuted and that they are more likely not to be convicted when they are prosecuted. Only once convicted are they more likely to be incarcerated but that is due to severity of their crimes and criminal history. I will provide links to the FBI and DOJ statistics when my kids are asleep.

zohar

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 5:23 pm

aleph wrote:

I think for the most part, as a whole, you will be hard pressed in this day and age to find normal people who associate skin color with genetic predisposition toward goodness or badness. In other words, aside from some extremist nutcases, I think that the word racism is oftentimes misused and in threads like this we are having 2 different conversations.

A more accurate word might be something like "culturalism" or "groupism" . People associate certain groups with higher levels of crime. If there is indeed more crime amongst certain groups, and in certain neighborhoods, it is because of many historical factors, such as past centuries of true discrimination and hatred based on physical differences, slavery and brutality, segregation, systemic disenfranchisement, no access to education and jobs, lowered socioeconomics, etc. Basically the destruction and havoc that real racism wreaked upon this society.

I don't see how denying that certain communities are suffering the effects of this historical brutality and mistreatment is proof of "not being a racist." These communities are suffering in real and profound ways, and I don't believe that denial is helpful in correcting past ills. It just seems like another form of characterization, more "racism."

I do not deny that history has impacted certain minority communities, however I see no evidence that discrimination on an institutional level is occurring today. I feel, (specifically in the African American community) that slavery disrupted normal family life and also disconnected them from their roots, language and traditions. Segregation and Jim Crowe also deprived these minorities of the some of the opportunities in education and career that non minorities had. In the 50s, however, black were moving up the socio economic ladder, but liberals undermined the traditional marriage and disincentived economic growth with social programs and made it easier for men to abandon their families. As Ben Shapiro likes to say, a two parent household is the biggest "privilege"in America. Another problem in urban minority communities is under policing. This make neighborhood unsafe and causes young men without positive make role models feel they would get further by turning to a life of crime.

Raisin

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 5:35 pm

I think it is true that blacks in the USA are still recovering from hundreds of years of discrimination, family disruptions, etc. Interestingly Obama was not descended from slaves, but from an African immigrant.

Where I live, blacks are a recent immigrant group, either economic migrants/refugees from Africa or professionals who have moved here to fill jobs from other countries eg the USA. I do not feel threatened by black men any more then I would feel threatened by a white man. Probably less threatened - whites are more likely to be criminals.

I do think that (in the USA - and maybe in other countries with similar histories) blacks are more likely to be given harsher sentences. Its also possible they are more likely to come from deprived backgrounds with few chances in life and thus more disposed to commit crimes.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:36 pm

zohar wrote:

This is a nice summary of what it seems you're asking for:

http://www.politifact.com/trut.....este/

There is a plethora of data showing that minorities are more likely to be arrested and given longer sentences than whites, for the same crimes and given the same history.

Please read the article carefully and look at the links before you reply. Thanks.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:40 pm

aleph wrote:

There are factors other than bias that account for the numbers, but bias is certainly a part of it.

33055

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

I reported for jury duty and they were picking a jury for a murder trial of a black man, the defendant was also a black man. The lawyer were being very thorough in weeding out people with biases. That is part of the defendants lawyers job, to pick out a fair jury.

This post shows a certain naivety and a lack of familiarity with the legal system. If you think a lawyer can do a thorough job weeding out racial biases, you are not a member of a minority, and you haven't been the victim of these biases. Some are outrageous and some are subtle. Way too many people are skilled at not saying what they are thinking. And many biases are ingrained in the lawyers and judges themselves.

The best that can be said is that it is the defendant's lawyers job to use best efforts that will pick a jury favorable for his client.

Mandatory training on bias issues for all involved in the process of justice would be a start. I hope this is a fallout from the SCOTUS case. State and local Judges should be only picked by merit. Right now in NY you don't have to be an attorney to be a judge. In Spring Valley the mayor appointed a non attorney Haitian Judge who has a felony conviction for helping fellow Haitians avoid prosecution. I jokingly told my husband that if we were ever sued by a Haitian before this man we should settle for whatever they ask and save the legal fees. We couldn't win.

cnc

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:45 pm

shooting star wrote:

So, in the Toronto area there is a specific minority group that likely does commit more crimes in at least one area. I say likely as I got the information from a relative who is in the police force and who is not racist but just stating the facts of what he was witnessing at work in one part of the city. From what he was saying, he actually sounded a bit surprised (he didn't grow up in that area).

We are big into multi-cultural-ism here and don't have the same history and culture as the US. Some of the high crime areas in/around Toronto do have more of specific minority groups so statistically, it may be true but I can't confirm. Also, the word "minority" here is relative because we have lots of immigrants. Often people are surprised to hear that my grandparents were born in Canada because this not too common in a lot of Toronto area communities since there was so much immigration in recent years.

I suggest that there could be some truth to racial profiling but I know that its not politically correct.

Can it be because those minorities are the majority in that specific area?

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:52 pm

Squishy wrote:

I don't know how SCOTUS will decide on this case, but part of oral arguments was spent discussing the slippery slope and how can we protect the integrity of the jury system and not police everything jurors say for any hint of bias.

What if the juror in the case, for example, had simply said : well, I think the guy is guilty because I believe our president-elect who told us that Mexico is not sending its best people- it's sending people who bring drugs and crimes and who are rapists.

Would that be a conviction to over turn? What if the guy just said, I don't like Mexicans, or I only trust people of my own kind.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 10:57 pm

amother wrote:

But you're not substantiating your argument with any actual data except that one story. Is that a basis to believe that racism is the reason for the incredible disproportion of black incarcerations vs white incarcerations? And how many rabbi's have you had bad experiences with? 3? 4? 5? Your sample size is way to small to assume anything about all rabbi's. The fact that year after year 13% of blacks are arrested for 50% of violent crimes is statistically significant. Is there some racist and prejudiced courts that wrongfully convict blacks? Probably. But I can't agree that it is the reason why the data shows what it does about blacks.

This should address most of your questions. http://www.politifact.com/trut.....este/

My answer about rabbis was to the amother who said she's prejudiced because of her personal experiences with minorities. In both cases using a small number to generalize is wrong.

33055

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 11:01 pm

debsey wrote:

Can an Orthodox Jew face an unbiased jury? Bias is an inherent part of the human condition. That's why juries are comprised of more than one person. I'm not sure that human bias is the best basis for this argument.

I think more often than a black or an immigrant, an Orthodox Jew can get a fair jury. From what I know about you from your posting, you probably present as a nicely well put together well spoken professional.

marina

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 11:03 pm

Here's a study that found what I said above- the race of the jurors affects conviction rates:

http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/.....tract

Quote:

...Juries formed from all-white jury pools convict black defendants significantly (16 percentage points) more often than white defendants, and this gap in conviction rates is entirely eliminated when the jury pool includes at least one black member. The impact of jury race is much greater than what a simple correlation of the race of the seated jury and conviction rates would suggest.

33055

Thu, Nov 24 2016, 11:16 pm

marina wrote:

In my state, ethics training is mandatory for attorneys and other professionals. Training in recognizing and over coming biases is not. More important than specific words uttered by a jurror is ameliorating these biases wholesale.

I hardly agree with Obama on many issues, but he made great strides in helping ex-cons rehabilitate by helping them become government workers and with education grants. I wish he could have done more with the state judicial systems.

debsey

Fri, Nov 25 2016, 8:55 am

marina wrote:

A legal education course I went to a while back featured a panel of judges doling out advice. Several of them emphasized that a trial is won or lost when the jury is picked. The composition of a jury is where a defendant's chance begin and end.

I completely agree that cases are won and lost in voir dire - because of bias. What I don't agree with is that anyone who is in any way "different" is not subject to some sort of bias. I honestly don't believe that an Orthodox Jew - particularly in an area where we've been in the news a lot - like Jackson, TR, or Lakewood - can get an unbiased jury.

It almost evens it out - we are all subject to bias of a sort. A minority is likely to have a much larger representative of his own group on the jury. That can help create a more representative jury pool. An Orthodox Jew (given that we are a smaller statistical minority) is not.

sushilover

Fri, Nov 25 2016, 9:54 am

marina wrote:

I think it's pretty apparent that people are prejudiced against men.
To quote Mrs. Banks from Mary Poppins, "Though we adore men individually,
we agree that as a group they're rather stupid!"
That doesn't mean that the justice system is sexist against men.

debsey

Fri, Nov 25 2016, 9:59 am

sushilover wrote:

I think women have received a fair bit of prejudice over the years as well! Particularly when they act contrary to gender stereotypes (I.e. - the tough male boss is a leader, the tough female boss is a you-know-what). That's my point - bias cancels out in a jury system because everyone on that jury will have their own individual biases, and they can all counter-weigh each other.

debsey

Fri, Nov 25 2016, 10:04 am

Squishy wrote:

Sure. (thanks for the compliment). But on a psychological level, will a jury tend to instinctively like and trust me? Given the amount of negative publicity Orthodox Jews have gotten lately (and the fact that many jurors are likely to have imbibed at least mild anti-Semitism with their mother's milk) I am not sure I would be judged solely as me - Debsey - I think all sorts of biases would creep in.

My point is that I think a minority is statistically more likely to have people on the jury similar to him (lots more Hispanics or African Americans in the larger Ocean County area) than I am to have a jury of people who instinctively identify with me. My belief is that cases are won and lost in juror's hearts, not in their minds. People think they are being logical, but in actuality, human nature is such that our unconscious attitudes lead our thoughts, not the other way around.

The only point I'm bringing up is that juror bias is not necessarily the best way to make an argument about minority overrepresentation in the judicial system. Law enforcement bias may be a better argument.

MrsDash

Fri, Nov 25 2016, 1:07 pm

justforfun87 wrote:

Come to Baltimore and you wouldn't even ask this question. The amount of robberies taking place in the Jewish community by the black community from the inner city is horrifying. FACT

That's because Baltimore city is predominantly black. When theres one race that makes up the majority, like say Lakewood, it's only natural that most offenses would be of their race or religion. In Lakewood, the non-Jewish people say that Jews are awful, aggressive, and dangerous drivers. You can cry anti semitism, but the majority of Lakewood is Jewish, so naturally most of the bad driving are committed by Jews.