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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 10:30 pm
marina wrote:
I know. That's why I'm not an open-borders person. It's not practical. But I definitely think more creative thinking about the problem would lead to better solutions than fear mongering. There are states with more cows than people, for example. I don't know that adding more people to those places ( as opposed to CA, FL, TX) would harm the economy instead of benefit them.


Again, we are in agreement. Many Guatemalans, for instance, come from rural areas and would enjoy that more than settling in Spring Valley. They would have a better quality of life than sleeping in shifts.

The benefit to Spring Valley and other sanctuary cities is they settle in with others who speak their language and can get products and go to restaurants that they have in their native county. They never really integrate.

I would also get rid of ESL because that cripples the students instead of helping them.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 10:35 pm
Squishy wrote:
The first thing is that Monsey traffic would improve. LOL

When you ask that question, it makes me think of the book "Left Behind". Did you read it? It had an interesting premise.

Obviously, we can't get rid of everyone below the federal poverty level. You can't disappear that many people without the economy being severely effected. Probably many defensive stocks like cigarettes, food companies that cater to poor people like Mac and cheese products, rental companies would tank and the effect would reverberate.

How about we just disappear a fraction of them? There is some number that would benefit the economy before constricting it.


Ok so perhaps we round them all up. Then we transport them to the imagined FEMA camps. In the camps we make them form a single line. On the left is a box of plain wrap mac and cheese and on the right is a bottle of Gefen grape juice. The folks choosing the mac and cheese would be disappeared. You get to pick what would happen to the people who picked the grape juice. My post is sarcasm and satire. I hope yours is as well.


Last edited by MagentaYenta on Sat, Dec 03 2016, 11:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PAMOM




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 11:12 pm
We're going to "disappear" human beings now? Is this what the US and we Jews have come to?
And, out of curiosity, what about ESL programs is a hinderance? They are designed to transition non-native speakers into English -speaking classrooms while continuing progress in other subjects so students don't get behind.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 11:16 pm
PAMOM wrote:
We're going to "disappear" human beings now? Is this what the US and we Jews have come to?
And, out of curiosity, what about ESL programs is a hinderance? They are designed to transition non-native speakers into English -speaking classrooms while continuing progress in other subjects so students don't get behind.


Pleeeze!

We are not disappearing people. We were discussing hypothetically what happens if those below 200% Federal poverty level disappeared, what would happen to the economy. Please don't tell me you couldn't follow the discussion.

The ESL program is a failure.
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PAMOM




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 11:33 pm
Squishy, see your posting at 10:23.

My question about ESL was serious. I've seen it work well and I've seen it work poorly when implemented as a kind of dumping ground.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 03 2016, 11:59 pm
PAMOM wrote:
Squishy, see your posting at 10:23.

My question about ESL was serious. I've seen it work well and I've seen it work poorly when implemented as a kind of dumping ground.


I know what I wrote. I wrote it.

The question was if the poor people disappeared, what happens to the economy. Why can't you follow that this is a hypothetical like the book Left Behind? In that book many people who were the most religious just disappeared all at once resulting in chaotic conditions - like pilots disappearing and bus drivers disappearing but the vehicles continued to travel. Obviously, if the poor disappeared the sectors that served the poorest would take a hit immediately.

Marina was trying to point out that the poor do create a market and their money trickles up through multipliers. This is not a hard real discussion.

I posit that the economy would improve without all the poor people, but we do need some of them. If I could snap my fingers and make them all above 200% poverty level, the economy would improve overall, but then we would create vacancies for certain sectors and certain industries would take a hit. Is that a better way to phase it?

ESL program is a failure and the individual student would be better off
in mainstream classes. ESL locks students in a sub track in school. These students don't mingle with others. The end up speaking their native language.

http://hotair.com/archives/200.....ents/
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 12:09 am
This was the article that was linked:
http://articles.latimes.com/20.....ish29

"...Though the study didn't determine why students were staying in English language programs for so long, researchers say schools may avoid moving English learners into mainstream classes to keep test scores high."
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 8:22 am
MagentaYenta wrote:
This was the article that was linked:
http://articles.latimes.com/20.....ish29

"...Though the study didn't determine why students were staying in English language programs for so long, researchers say schools may avoid moving English learners into mainstream classes to keep test scores high."


...with the result that they do not integrate, linguistically or socially. IOW, as currently implemented, the program is not working (or being allowed to work).
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 9:23 am
tryinghard wrote:
...with the result that they do not integrate, linguistically or socially. IOW, as currently implemented, the program is not working (or being allowed to work).


The schools are not motivated to succeed because they get money for having the students in ESL programs. When the students succeed, the money stops.

LOL This is perfect for some Yiddish schools. Money for not learning secular subjects. I am surprised the Jewish schools haven't figured out this source of funding. They could teach the students in Yiddish with no pressure that the students actually learn. They probably can't get qualified teachers with the right heskofer.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:11 am
Squishy wrote:
The schools are not motivated to succeed because they get money for having the students in ESL programs. When the students succeed, the money stops.

LOL This is perfect for some Yiddish schools. Money for not learning secular subjects. I am surprised the Jewish schools haven't figured out this source of funding. They could teach the students in Yiddish with no pressure that the students actually learn. They probably can't get qualified teachers with the right heskofer.


There are so many inaccuracies in this discussion, it's hard to know where to start.

1. ELL /ESL programs are just like special ed programs- they vary by effectiveness because different school districts have different programming. There's no one ELL program for the entire country.

2. The Title III federal funding program is subject to so so many rules. Schools cannot just take that money and do whatever they want with it. Enjoy some of these rules here:

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/else......html

3. School districts get those federal funds ONLY as long as students make progress, as defined tightly by federal law. Enjoy an example from Texas here: http://tea.texas.gov/AMAOs/


4. The federal gov exempts ELL students from standardized testing for one year. One year. After that their scores are counted with everyone else, meaning that the school gets lower ratings and less funding if those kids don't perform on par with everyone else. Can you imagine taking a 5th grade reading test one year after arriving in the country? Schools have PLENTY of incentive to teach these kids English ASAP.

5. This administration made ELL students' rights a top priority. If you look at the Dear Colleague letter from the Office for Civil Rights linked below, it's pretty clear that school districts risk losing all their federal funding if ELL kids don't learn the actual classroom material. The burden to figure out how to teach social studies and language arts to a child who cannot speak English falls entirely to the school district, without any extra funds to go along with it.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offic......html
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:30 am
I have to comment on the ESL because it's disgraceful that Jews are lashing out at immigrant groups who need help - especially in school. School and love of learning and education and reverance for teachers is what has elevated Jews throughout the years. To read that others want to close the doors and deny this to others breaks my heart and makes my stomach churn literally so I try not to read.

My Bubbe came to this country when she was 11 and did not speak one word of English. Back in that time, there was no special treatment for children who didn't speak English. You were put in a classroom and you sank or you swam. She was tested as an idiot that year - literally. She went on to graduate college Phi Beta Kappa.

Now some might say, oh well see, she made it without special help. But that's not the point. My point is that her brilliant mind could have just as easily have been wasted if she didn't have exceptional parents - especially HER mother who placed education ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE. There were only girls in the family and they were expected to learn and not do anything else - that was their job and they were expected to work hard at it. My mother was an especially hard worker and my aunts as adults would complain because the whole family would have to be quiet.

How much easier and less traumatizing if she had a year or so in which she was able to learn in English as well as her native tongue. ESL does not create a separate track where students then learn in their native tongue the rest of their life. It creates an environment in which they don't experience academic failure and thus lose any ability to ever catch up - which ultimately results in drop outs and wasted human potential.

As to the whole thread and the election, I have nothing personally to gain or loss unless Trump succeeds in blowing up the world - and given his recent foray into diplomacy that remains a possibility. Rolling Eyes However, my schadenfreude will know no bounds as one by one social programs that benefit people who THINK they are conservatives are meddled with and dismantled. My favorite political line was the idiot with the placard stating Government Keep Your Hands Off Medicare. Very Happy Ryan is set to destroy that by having vouchers to purchase premiums instead of the current system where you are guaranteed a very high level of services through Parts A and B.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:38 am
marina wrote:
There are so many inaccuracies in this discussion, it's hard to know where to start.

1. ELL /ESL programs are just like special ed programs- they vary by effectiveness because different school districts have different programming. There's no one ELL program for the entire country.

2. The Title III federal funding program is subject to so so many rules. Schools cannot just take that money and do whatever they want with it. Enjoy some of these rules here:

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/else......html

3. School districts get those federal funds ONLY as long as students make progress, as defined tightly by federal law. Enjoy an example from Texas here: http://tea.texas.gov/AMAOs/


4. The federal gov exempts ELL students from standardized testing for one year. One year. After that their scores are counted with everyone else, meaning that the school gets lower ratings and less funding if those kids don't perform on par with everyone else. Can you imagine taking a 5th grade reading test one year after arriving in the country? Schools have PLENTY of incentive to teach these kids English ASAP.

5. This administration made ELL students' rights a top priority. If you look at the Dear Colleague letter from the Office for Civil Rights linked below, it's pretty clear that school districts risk losing all their federal funding if ELL kids don't learn the actual classroom material. The burden to figure out how to teach social studies and language arts to a child who cannot speak English falls entirely to the school district, without any extra funds to go along with it.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offic......html


Marina,

You and I come from two completely different worlds. In my world (private schools), Title I is diverted to pay for sports, rebbenim, help the general fund of the school, and reward teachers with extra pay. Title II is for Yiddish programming, weekends away for Rebbenim, and as a bonus for administrators. I won't go into other programs, but similarly the goals are perverted; hence, my skepticism of ESL and my willingness to believe what I read.

If you say in your world(public school) ESL is effective, I can't disagree. I only know what I read and see with my own eyes. On par with other students also may not mean much when the whole district is sub-par.

The challenge of teaching students English and catching them up to state standards is enormous especially when they weren't given a quality education before they arrived here. Have you been reading about the Mexican kids who go back and forth across boarder for years at a time? There appears to be a whole class of children who it appears impossible to catch up.

Do you think ESL is working as is, or are there enormous difficulties with this program?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 11:08 am
Amarante wrote:
I have to comment on the ESL because it's disgraceful that Jews are lashing out at immigrant groups who need help - especially in school. School and love of learning and education and reverance for teachers is what has elevated Jews throughout the years. To read that others want to close the doors and deny this to others breaks my heart and makes my stomach churn literally so I try not to read.

My Bubbe came to this country when she was 11 and did not speak one word of English. Back in that time, there was no special treatment for children who didn't speak English. You were put in a classroom and you sank or you swam. She was tested as an idiot that year - literally. She went on to graduate college Phi Beta Kappa.

Now some might say, oh well see, she made it without special help. But that's not the point. My point is that her brilliant mind could have just as easily have been wasted if she didn't have exceptional parents - especially HER mother who placed education ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE. There were only girls in the family and they were expected to learn and not do anything else - that was their job and they were expected to work hard at it. My mother was an especially hard worker and my aunts as adults would complain because the whole family would have to be quiet.

How much easier and less traumatizing if she had a year or so in which she was able to learn in English as well as her native tongue. ESL does not create a separate track where students then learn in their native tongue the rest of their life. It creates an environment in which they don't experience academic failure and thus lose any ability to ever catch up - which ultimately results in drop outs and wasted human potential.

As to the whole thread and the election, I have nothing personally to gain or loss unless Trump succeeds in blowing up the world - and given his recent foray into diplomacy that remains a possibility. Rolling Eyes However, my schadenfreude will know no bounds as one by one social programs that benefit people who THINK they are conservatives are meddled with and dismantled. My favorite political line was the idiot with the placard stating Government Keep Your Hands Off Medicare. Very Happy Ryan is set to destroy that by having vouchers to purchase premiums instead of the current system where you are guaranteed a very high level of services through Parts A and B.



You can still be a good Jew and have common sense. If the program were only for a year, then I don't think kids would be stuck in it long term.

Your bubby could have gone to the best school, but her parents behind her education could be the biggest factor. Without home support, it hard for the best schools to educate. That is why the top minds in education in the country recognize this and partner with parents.

DH had a similar experience to your bubby while his cousins who were not forced to learn English are not professionals. DH's father insisted the family live in an area without people who spoke his native language. DH went to school not knowing the language and caught on. He doesn't have the slightest accent today. This was difficult for my mil initially who had 4 kids when they arrived. Decades later, she speaks fluently and understand subtle meanings; while, her sister who arrived first can barely converse and switches immediately to her native tongue first chance. All DH's siblings are professionals also.

I see this same dynamic in their large extended family. Those that weren't forced to learn English still didn't integrate. To be sure, we have businessmen in the family who primarily cater to Those that also speak their native language.

My grandparents had similar experiences to yours as they were all immigrants who arrived not under the best of circumstances. They were forced to learn English to survive and their kid's thrived.

In Monsey, there are native born citizens who barely speak English. They have difficulties in the secular world. Language can serve as a barrier.

IMO the short term pain of being forced to learn the language could be worth the long term gains.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 11:34 am
Squishy, I don't disagree with your sentiments as I think that good language skills in the country of one's residence is absolutely fundamental to success in that society.

We might be discussing apples and oranges though as I don't think total immersion in a sink or swim environment is the best learning environment. I think it kills the spirit more than it helps unless the child and the family are very very special with indomitable wills to learn. Like the proverbial Ailanthus tree memorialized in A Tree Grows In Brooklyn, some of these children might thrive anywhere - they are the miracles of accomplishment. But I think most people aren't so exceptional and so I think we lose tremendous assets when we don't reach out and intervene.

Conversely I don't support not requiring that children be moved out of ESL quickly so that it is not a crutch preventing full integration and learning of language skills.

Of course parents are critical. But often even the best intentioned parents just don't have the ability or the skills - the time or whatever it takes to provide the kind of intensive support that would be considered normal in a middle or upper middle class home. For all kinds of reasons - and there are early intervention programs for parents which seem to work extremely well but of course require money and effort and skilled personnel to implement them.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 1:27 pm
Squishy wrote:
Marina,

You and I come from two completely different worlds. In my world (private schools), Title I is diverted to pay for sports, rebbenim, help the general fund of the school, and reward teachers with extra pay. Title II is for Yiddish programming, weekends away for Rebbenim, and as a bonus for administrators. I won't go into other programs, but similarly the goals are perverted; hence, my skepticism of ESL and my willingness to believe what I read.

If you say in your world(public school) ESL is effective, I can't disagree. I only know what I read and see with my own eyes. On par with other students also may not mean much when the whole district is sub-par.

The challenge of teaching students English and catching them up to state standards is enormous especially when they weren't given a quality education before they arrived here. Have you been reading about the Mexican kids who go back and forth across boarder for years at a time? There appears to be a whole class of children who it appears impossible to catch up.

Do you think ESL is working as is, or are there enormous difficulties with this program?


I hear you about your experiences. But please understand that part of the problem with private schools is that the government is very wary of investigating them because of the first amendment. Unfortunately, chadorim are allowed to get away with so much because of that. For example, entire school systems are permitted not to teach any English or math or history and the NYC board of education looks the other way. To change this, controversial organizations such as Yaffed, have to make a huge fuss and initiate litigation in court that may likely fail.

Obviously the problem with migrant kids is colossal and schools have a VERY difficult time showing progress for kids who come to school or not according to harvest seasons. But these problems exist to some extent in any public school system that serves low socio economic students regardless of immigration status. Some school systems serve many children whose parents are cocaine users or in jail and higher education is not on anyone's radar- finishing high school is as far as many of them dream. I dk that this is an easy population to serve or that it is easier to get those kids to achieve than ELL kids, who may be more motivated depending on their family.

Lots of immigrants (regardless of status) go through a tremendous amount of hardship to get here and they insist on their children getting an excellent education. I'd venture that those families are pretty easy to integrate.

I did my student teaching at the famous Mott Hall school in Harlem where there were more immigrant kids than non-immigrants and it was a pleasure. The kids were more interested in learning than any other group that I saw since then. I always joke that I would be teaching fourth grade and I would sneeze and the students would diligently write down in their notebooks that the teacher sneezed, lol.

Immigrants, like anyone, are a varied group and we cannot just assume they all don't care about education. Many of the do, and even more than the non-immigrants here.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 1:33 pm
Quote:
DH had a similar experience to your bubby while his cousins who were not forced to learn English are not professionals. DH's father insisted the family live in an area without people who spoke his native language. DH went to school not knowing the language and caught on. He doesn't have the slightest accent today. This was difficult for my mil initially who had 4 kids when they arrived. Decades later, she speaks fluently and understand subtle meanings; while, her sister who arrived first can barely converse and switches immediately to her native tongue first chance. All DH's siblings are professionals also.


Of course this is also all age-dependent. Children who come as little kids, before puberty, have a much easier time learning English than those who come after puberty.

And being forced to learn English has nothing to do with it, often. My mother forbade us all from speaking English at home and we had to learn heavy Russian poetry for every word of English we uttered. We went to school like immigrants off the boat (well I actually was off the boat in first grade) - we all learned fluent English and none of us speak with an accent and we still remember our Russian and some of us can even read and write it. Which is not at all the case for many kids whose parents insist on them learning English. They learn English but forget their native language and are no longer bilingual, which is pretty sad.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 3:43 pm
marina wrote:
I hear you about your experiences. But please understand that part of the problem with private schools is that the government is very wary of investigating them because of the first amendment. Unfortunately, chadorim are allowed to get away with so much because of that. For example, entire school systems are permitted not to teach any English or math or history and the NYC board of education looks the other way. To change this, controversial organizations such as Yaffed, have to make a huge fuss and initiate litigation in court that may likely fail.

Obviously the problem with migrant kids is colossal and schools have a VERY difficult time showing progress for kids who come to school or not according to harvest seasons. But these problems exist to some extent in any public school system that serves low socio economic students regardless of immigration status. Some school systems serve many children whose parents are cocaine users or in jail and higher education is not on anyone's radar- finishing high school is as far as many of them dream. I dk that this is an easy population to serve or that it is easier to get those kids to achieve than ELL kids, who may be more motivated depending on their family.

Lots of immigrants (regardless of status) go through a tremendous amount of hardship to get here and they insist on their children getting an excellent education. I'd venture that those families are pretty easy to integrate.

I did my student teaching at the famous Mott Hall school in Harlem where there were more immigrant kids than non-immigrants and it was a pleasure. The kids were more interested in learning than any other group that I saw since then. I always joke that I would be teaching fourth grade and I would sneeze and the students would diligently write down in their notebooks that the teacher sneezed, lol.

Immigrants, like anyone, are a varied group and we cannot just assume they all don't care about education. Many of the do, and even more than the non-immigrants here.


The government needs some teeth in the legislation to punish private schools. In my district, the only punishment for the schools not adhering to state standards is ONE sternly worded letter placed in their file. So what?

There is something so wrong. I don't see as a Constitutional issue so much as a lack of will to force the schools to adhere to the law. If the government gives money for certain purposes and the school signs a contract the government is within its right to oversee the disbursement of the money? Isn't that a contractual issue then rather than a Constitutional issue?

I think the government lacks the will to punish voting blocks at least that is my impression in Rockland County/NYC/Orange County. I think it can be done within the framework of separation of church and state.

The really sad part is that most Monsey parents don't care and allow their kids to receive a substandard secular education. I have spoken to numerous people and they expressed that I am wrong thinking because I want my children to be educated. Girls should be to be able to reason rather than spit back facts, and boys should be literate and college ready. They don't even realize what they are missing.

I agree with you that many immigrant children and first generation citizens have home support. Their parents are behind them being educated. I wish the same was true in my community.

Again, I agree with more of what you are saying then disagree. My "beef" is the concentration of the needy students in an already overburdened school district. I keep saying the financial burden must be fairly distributed and there needs to be a way to stop the flood of people coming here. Again, you agreed with me in controlling our boarders.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 7:11 pm
tryinghard wrote:
...with the result that they do not integrate, linguistically or socially. IOW, as currently implemented, the program is not working (or being allowed to work).


The quoted article has some related articles below it that bring up other issues vis a vis Los Angeles schools and ESL programs. You may enjoy reading about them.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 7:23 pm
Squishy, I think you hit the nail on the head because your experience is in two or three school districts that have extreme leverage over local politicians and even state politicians because they can deliver large numbers of votes as a bloc.

There is not a strong countervailing opposition that can fight that kind if power because most people don't care if a small group of extremely insular people choose to run their schools by ignoring secular studies. To the extent people even know about this kind of thing because it's my own personal experience that most people are completely unaware that a segment of the Jewish population essentially allows their children to grow up functionally illiterate.

With so many competing causes to take up, who outside the community is going to take up the cause o those who deliberately choose this route since they aren't an immediate threat to others and the politicians are happy to leave the M alone in exchange for their votes.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 8:17 pm
If you want a 1st Amendment free "safe zone", try Tufts University. http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/30122/

or Amherst College. http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25086/

or Cal Poly. http://www.dailywire.com/news/.....ndler

or the University of Michigan. http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25047/

or Mizzou. http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25054/

Sadly, it only took me about 2 minutes to come up with these links - and all without using Breitbart.

No pesky free speech to trigger you with a microaggression, but I'm sure they'll have scented candles, coloring books, and lots of puppies for you to snuggle. I hope your parents are proud of your education! If you are a parent, are you sure this is the education you want to be paying for?

I don't know if there's a big demand for people with degrees in candle sniffing and puppy snuggling. Maybe there's a niche market? I can see it now, one safe space on every street corner, just like Starbucks. Every time you're offended, you can come in for a half hour of special snowflake coddling, all for the cost of a grande latte. Trump Trauma Tuesdays are half price, just show your college ID (no proof of actual voting necessary.)
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