What the He**?? What do you say to this article?

pizza4

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 7:43 pm

amother wrote:

I like to think of women as being "Adam 2.0". We're the upgraded version! Very Happy

I mean, hey, why buy a second hand iPhone, when you can get the latest model? Wink

I do wonder, though. If a man is not designed to be a full time kollel learner, and instead works as a plumber or baker, does he get olam habah? What if he's dyslexic? I mean, that's a lot of pressure.

In the meantime, if the woman is working full time to support this holy chocham, who is raising the kids he's obligated to have?

You know why kollel
men are thankful that they weren't born women? Because they are never expected to earn enough to pay all the bills, keep an immaculate house, and raise a dozen kids, all at the same time. Go sit and learn, daven, learn some more, and come home after all the kids are bathed and in bed - and expect a nice hot supper no matter how late it is and how early the wife has to get up.

Working men are only expected to pay the bills, (and work) then come home to the same as above.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 7:50 pm

amother wrote:

Okay, I know it's total BS. But I hate, hate, hate when men are misogynistic in the name of the Torah. Because I could totally see my dad writing that. (He's a rabbi too.) Or my uncles. Or my brothers. Or many of my teachers. Argh.

Sorry that you such nasty men. I don't know one man that would say something like that.

sequoia

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 7:59 pm

amother wrote:

You know why men are thankful that they weren't born women? Because they are never expected to earn enough to pay all the bills, keep an immaculate house, and raise a dozen kids, all at the same time. Go sit and learn, daven, learn some more, and come home after all the kids are bathed and in bed - and expect a nice hot supper no matter how late it is and how early the wife has to get up.

That is a very small percentage of frum men, thankfully.

eschaya

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 9:41 pm

I've seen a few of these sources before and they used to bother me deeply (abarbenel, netziv). And this is not a mistranslation... you can look them up just like I did. But there are other mefarshim who say differently, like rav Shamshon Refael Hirsch who notes that women are the higher species because we are not made from dirt like men are, and also because we were the refined version of mankind (man 2.0 as someone above posted). I now choose to believe in this version of the Torah and humanity, and for better or worse do not give credence to the opinion of those mefarshim who feel that I have no worth or purpose other than procreation.

Orchid

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 10:21 pm

The author of that blog (and the moderated comments he keep up) are deeply anti-woman. Don't take his stuff seriously. He holds, for example, woman not being entitled to any alimony whatsoever as that is a modern, feminist, construct. So if a man cheats on his wife with his 20 year old secretary, and she has no career because she's spent her entire life raising their kids and taking care of the household, she should be "thrown out of the house" with a token amount per the literal translation of the kesubah. Any attempt on her part to claim some part of the marital assets is gnaivah mamash and she is not entitled to a get so long as she uses the American court system to engender such gnaivah. He, and his readership, basically believe women are property. If a man is "harsh" to his wife, the solution is for her to learn to respect him even more. Blah blah blah, the stuff we thankfully have gotten rid of a century ago.
And that's one example.
Hardly anyone holds like him (thankfully) so best to just avoid his blog altogether, unless you like having your blood boiled Smile

5mom

Sun, Dec 04 2016, 11:57 pm

iluvy wrote:

Wow, what garbage. It's self-refuting in the sense that I bet most women reading it in fact know more Torah than he does. No tzelem Elokim for this guy!

Unfortunately, the opinions of the Abarbenel and the Netziv are authentic voices in our tradition. Luckily, there isn't just one "Torah approach" so we can work with other, more sympathetic views.

It's worth remembering that Torah encompasses a broad range of ideas. It's also worth remembering that some of those views won't sit well with everyone. People who've grown up in the age of self-esteem find it hard to believe that they might have to acknowledge the validity of views they find repugnant. There's a tendency to think that everything in religion must be totally pleasant to us. And yet, sometimes we need the humility to acknowledge that our feelings aren't the only measure of whether an idea is valid.

Orchid

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 8:09 am

5mom wrote:

You're right. But we could probably swallow that other approach from someone other than a documented believer of women being treated like property. When coming from his mouth, it's hard not to be offended.

5mom

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 8:35 am

Orchid wrote:

I don't know this blogger, so I assume you are right. I was only reacting to the content.

iluvy

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:03 am

5mom wrote:

I'm referring to the fact that this guy doesn't know how to learn Torah. You do not dig up an obscure Abarbanel and fabricate some kind of mehalech, against the overwhelming bulk of Jewish machshava, without much stronger textual support. He's like someone who Googles keywords in the Gemara and starts paskening from there. I am rolling my eyes at this, and so would anyone who actually learns Torah.

hillary

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:08 am

Orchid wrote:

Look, your sense of fairness may demand alimony and the like, but if the Torah does not mandate it, it is theft. He is not the one who invented that.

This is not the Torah's view of morality, just jurisprudence. Which are not the same thing. But if a person decides something is fair and proceeds to take it on his own, even if their opinion is valid, they are stealing. This is not connected to gender or divorce law, merely halacha.

I do agree that that blog is misogynistic, as well as lopsided. He takes sides in an argument and pretends to be objective. The commenters seem to be all the same person.

PinkFridge

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:14 am

I didn't read the article. I do want to add this to what iluvy said, re obscure mefarshim. Without parsing the Netziv and Abarbanel mentioned here, sometimes someone, and I mean someone of the stature of the Netziv, Abarbanel, a tana, a rishon, an acharon, etc., someone will posit something and then go on a riff from there. He might go on to tear such a position apart. Or he may say it has validity but is not for any number of reasons, l'maaseh. Or other.

I just say this because I don't want anyone to read this thread - or others - and walk away with less respect than they should have for anyone of such stature. I am not referring to the writer of this article and am reserving judgment because I don't have the time or inclination to delve into it all but I do wonder if the famous dictum of Rabbi Yisrael Salanter applies here, the one that goes, not everything that is thought should be spoken, not everything that is spoken should be written down, and not everything that is written down should be published.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Dec 05 2016, 10:39 am

Orchid wrote:

It's interesting, because I feel the exact opposite way. If I hear something unpleasant or hurtful coming from someone I do not trust or respect, then it's easy for me to discount it and not take offense, whereas if I hear it from reputable sources then it's a lot harder for me. This particular piece is written by a person who is known to be misogynistic and does not represent the mainstream torah viewpoint, so my inclination is to ignore what he says. At the same time, I have actually looked at these sources before, and they are kind of hard to ignore and discount because they are mainstream commentaries that are respected in the frum world. I used to struggle greatly with these matters, and to save my emunah and faith in Hashem, my emunas chachamim had to be diminished somewhat. Butknowing that there are other commentaries who say the exact opposite helps restore some of my faith.