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At vs. by
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 4:27 pm
Does anyone have a link or reference that explains the rules? I need to clarify the concept to high school students.

I have come across forums discussing this but I am looking for a coherent trustworthy source rather than answers to specific questions.

TIA
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 4:30 pm
amother wrote:
Does anyone have a link or reference that explains the rules? I need to clarify the concept to high school students.

I have come across forums discussing this but I am looking for a coherent trustworthy source rather than answers to specific questions.

TIA


Saying that you stayed "by" someone is yeshivish-speak. I suppose you could say that while not formally grammatically correct, it's dialectical, like Ebonics is considered to be in some formal language testing settings. I personally find the substitution of "at" with "by" annoying, and would advise a high school student writing a college essay not to use this in their composition.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 4:41 pm
By means near. The correct phrase would be "I stayed at Sarah's house." If you say, "I was by Sarah's house" that technically means you were near Sarah's house. Using "by" like this is a yiddishism.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 4:49 pm
You asked for a link with details.

http://www.talkenglish.com/gra......aspx

This explains when we use "at".

Since the use of "by", which is based on the Yiddish, is not common outside of frum circles, you are less likely to find the comparison in your average grammar source.
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 4:50 pm
Thanks to both posters. Using by when meaning at (inside) is obviously wrong, and I can figure out a way to explain that.

There is more to it though.

Time:
I need this done by 7 (deadline).
I need this done at 7 (specific time).

Location:
I stood by/at her side.

What's the rule or guideline?
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:00 pm
https://www.waywordradio.org/at-vs-by/

This did not answer my question, but I found it interesting.
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familyfirst




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:03 pm
Seems like by 7 means yiu can complete this any time you like but must be done by 7. As in be home by 7. Yiu can come earlier if yiu like.

At 7 means just that- finish it at 7. Come home at 7.
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:04 pm
imasinger wrote:
You asked for a link with details.

http://www.talkenglish.com/gra......aspx

This explains when we use "at".

Since the use of "by", which is based on the Yiddish, is not common outside of frum circles, you are less likely to find the comparison in your average grammar source.


Thanks! That is exactly the problem I keep coming up against. I need to teach this to native yiddish speakers. While I am at it, I'd like to help them use the two words correctly in situations where even native English speakers switch off between the two, like in the examples I gave of giving a time as a deadline, until and including the deadline, vs a specific moment in time.

I need this done by 7.
I will pick it up at 7.
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:06 pm
familyfirst wrote:
Seems like by 7 means yiu can complete this any time you like but must be done by 7. As in be home by 7. Yiu can come earlier if yiu like.

At 7 means just that- finish it at 7. Come home at 7.


Exactly.

My point is that there are more ways to confuse at and by than the standard yiddishism (which confuses the two prepositions when showing location.)

If I prepare a list of rules for my students, I want to be thorough. I need to compile the rules from trustworthy sources.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:07 pm
Does this help?

http://www.talkenglish.com/gra......aspx

Quote:

By

Used to indicate proximity:

Can I sit by you?
He was standing by me.
The post office is by the bank.

Used to indicate the person that does something in a passive voice sentence:

The microwave was fixed by the mechanic.
The flowers were delivered by a postman.
The branch office was closed by the head office.

Used to indicate an action with a particular purpose:

You can pass the exam by preparing for it.
I expressed my feeling toward her by writing a letter.
She finally broke the record by pure effort.

Used to indicate a mean or method:

Please send this package to Russia by airmail.
I came here by subway.

[Quiz 24.1]

Choose the correct preposition in each sentence.

1)If she left at 4 p.m., she should be here (with, over, by) now.
2)Go (with, over, by) there and catch my ball.
3) (With, Over, By) your determination, you will be able to achieve your dream.
4)I just found it! It was (with, over, by) the radio on my desk.
5)I knocked him (with, over, by) accidentally.
6)She was (with, over, by) me when the accident occurred.
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:10 pm
imasinger wrote:


Can I sit by you?
He was standing by me.
The post office is by the bank.




I like the definitions, but I would not choose the word by in any of these three sentences.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:11 pm
familyfirst wrote:
Seems like by 7 means yiu can complete this any time you like but must be done by 7. As in be home by 7. Yiu can come earlier if yiu like.

At 7 means just that- finish it at 7. Come home at 7.


What is "yiu?"
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:13 pm
amother wrote:
I like the definitions, but I would not choose the word by in any of these three sentences.


Why not?
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:22 pm
amother wrote:
I like the definitions, but I would not choose the word by in any of these three sentences.


Me neither. They all sound American Yeshivish to me.

I would say

Can I sit near (or next to) you?

He was standing next to me

The post office is near/next to/ close to/ opposite (pick one) the bank

(btw I am not American)
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familyfirst




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:28 pm
Yiu is you
Typing on my phone and my finger keeps hitting the Wrong button

Sorry to annoy yiu... I mean you:)
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 5:40 pm
MitzadSheini wrote:
Me neither. They all sound American Yeshivish to me.

I would say

Can I sit near (or next to) you?

He was standing next to me

The post office is near/next to/ close to/ opposite (pick one) the bank

(btw I am not American)


I agree with your choices.

I am working on formulating the rules, or rather guidelines. I hope to post it for your further input.

For now, I am getting the impression that at is more precise and by is rather vague, inclusive, abstract, or open-ended.
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 6:01 pm
Okay. I decided not to define the two words, nor will I give all the possible ways they can be used. I want to focus on the times when students need to decide between the two. Here's what I've compiled so far. I welcome all input.

The prepositions at and by may cause confusion because both words can be used to indicate location or time.

Location:
At is used when naming a specific location.

The party will take place at my neighbor’s house.
Meet me at the entrance.

By is used to indicate near a place, or when indicating an abstract location.

I stood by the side of road.
She stood by my side throughout the ordeal.


Time:
At is used when referring to a specific time or time of day.

Please have this ready at 12.
She will pick it up at night.

By is used when approximating a time, or when allowing completion at any time until the deadline.

Please have this ready by 12.
I need to finish reading this by tomorrow.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 6:20 pm
amother wrote:
Okay. I decided not to define the two words, nor will I give all the possible ways they can be used. I want to focus on the times when students need to decide between the two. Here's what I've compiled so far. I welcome all input.

The prepositions at and by may cause confusion because both words can be used to indicate location or time.

Location:
At is used when naming a specific location.

The party will take place at my neighbor’s house.
Meet me at the entrance.

By is used to indicate near a place, or when indicating an abstract location.

I stood by the side of road.
She stood by my side throughout the ordeal.


Time:
At is used when referring to a specific time or time of day.

Please have this ready at 12.
She will pick it up at night.

By is used when approximating a time, or when allowing completion at any time until the deadline.

Please have this ready by 12.
I need to finish reading this by tomorrow.

Sounds very clear and structured, but I'm not sure it's correct. See if you can clarify these questions (as if a student is asking you).

Location: What's the difference between I stood at the side of the road and I stood by the side of the road?

Time: Both examples of by indicate a deadline. Can you provide an example of approximating time with the use of by?
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amother
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Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 6:51 pm
pause wrote:
Sounds very clear and structured, but I'm not sure it's correct. See if you can clarify these questions (as if a student is asking you).

Location: What's the difference between I stood at the side of the road and I stood by the side of the road?

Time: Both examples of by indicate a deadline. Can you provide an example of approximating time with the use of by?


I actually disagree... I think it's correct but the examples are not so clear, at least not when read without context. My problem now is that this is the impression I have, I cannot point to specific rules that prove it.

Standing by the side of the road indicates a vague location, like when someone is not entirely sure exactly where he or she is.

Standing at the side of the road is more precise, as if the person is waiting at a prearranged location at the side of a specific road.

Am I right?


When I differentiate between a specific time and a deadline, I mean the kind of deadline that marks the end of the period within which it is acceptable to complete the task, like the idea familyfirst posted.

I have to finish this by noon tomorrow, because I need to start class at 12.
Please have this ready by 12, because I am planning to pick it up at 12:05.

ETA: Regarding the last two examples, how about:

I want to finish reading this by tomorrow.
Or
Or I hope I will be ready by the time my friend calls.

They're still deadlines but not pinpointed quite as precisely or strictly.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2016, 6:55 pm
amother wrote:
I actually disagree... I think it's correct but the examples are not so clear, at least not when read without context. My problem now is that this is the impression I have, I cannot point to specific rules that prove it.

Standing by the side of the road indicates a vague location, like when someone is not entirely sure exactly where he or she is.

Standing at the side of the road is more precise, as if the person is waiting at a prearranged location at the side of a specific road.

Am I right?


When I differentiate between a specific time and a deadline, I mean the kind of deadline that marks the end of the period within which it is acceptable to complete the task, like the idea familyfirst posted.

I have to finish this by noon tomorrow, because I need to start class at 12.
Please have this ready by 12, because I am planning to pick it up at 12:05.
About the road example, I'm not sure you're right. I don't know. To me they sound the same.

About the deadline, I understood what you meant with that. In your original post you wrote
Quote:
By is used when approximating a time, or when allowing completion at any time until the deadline.
The examples given don't show the bolded; they only indicate the second (unbolded) part of your post.
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