Mamzerim? | Imamother

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 1:46 pm

the of mamzerim topic interests me. if a beis din declares someone a mamzer, do other people know about it?
I heard that a mamzer can only marry another mamzer, and their children are mamzerim. does that mean that they don't have children?
please keep this post informational, not critical and opinionated. thanks

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 3:10 pm

OP, almost universally, batei din do not declare any individual to be a mamzer. Perhaps even universally. Are you aware of any beit din in the last few hundred years that has declared someone to be a mamzer?

Rabbanim do (sometimes? often? certainly in Israel) investigate chatanim and kallot to be sure they are Jewish. This is especially true if the chatan or kallah or their parents have converted. But they do not investigate mamzerut.

etky

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 3:41 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

In the late 60's and early 70's - the famous case of the Langer twins. The Petach Tikva rabbinical court declared the twins mamzerim (their mother had been married to a convert in Poland and had not received a get from him before she married the twins' father in Israel) and thus unable to wed their Jewish fiancees.
The case, amidst tremendous publicity, progressed to the high rabbinical court in Jerusalem, caused a coaltion crisis that almost brought down the government and eventually, after prolonged deliberations involving such famous personalities such as rabbis Goren, Ovadia Yosef and Eliashiv (at the time a member of the high rabbinical court) the Petach Tikva's decision was overturned and the twin's mamzerut status was rescinded.

etky

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 4:11 pm

Just wanted to add that if anything, this famous case demonstrates the tremendous lengths that dayanim will go to - leaving no stone unturned - in order to avoid labelling someone as a mamzer. Cases like this do crop up in Israel from time to time, especially in the context of olim from the FSU.

goodmorning

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 4:44 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

The Rabbanut in Israel maintains a registry called the Prohibited Marriages List, which keeps tabs on anyone deemed "unfit" for Jewish marriage. According to http://repository.jmls.edu/cgi.....jitpl there were 258 mamzerim/suspected mamzerim on the list as of 2012.

This is a guess, but I'd conjecture that the majority of the mamzerim on the list are those whose mothers were separated from their husbands but did not receive a get. If the woman was still living with her husband when she was unfaithful, there is room for halachic workarounds. If she wasn't ... there's much less room.

Conjecture again, but it's possible that this is an even bigger problem in chul where couples can divorce civilly but not halachically.

hillary

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 4:52 pm

Rav Elyashiv resigned from his post in protest of the pesak rendered by Rabbi goren. That pesak was generally considered a political one, not a halachic one. Read the newspapers of the time.

One Jewish source says רוב ממזרים פקחים, which is the source of calling someone a clever b-d

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 5:58 pm

I've heard that in the case where someone is a mamzer, it does not get publicized. In fact, it's meant to keep confidential as a mamzer can marry anyone as long as they have no clue. Mamzerim and their kids are only mamzerim till it gets forgotten. So if someone did not think of doing a background check when the mamzer was retd to their child, and they get married, they can stay married. I've also heard that it's actually forbidden to go around warning ppl that so and so is a mamzer. If someone asks for shiduch purposes, it can be said, but only if asked.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:38 pm

yksraya wrote:

I don't think this is the way in the charedi world.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:41 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think this is the way in the charedi world.

I'm pretty much chareidi. Dunno which world you talk about. That's how it's meant to be. If ppl like to gossip, that's lashon hora and they need to learn shemiras haloshon. But that doen't make it right if ppl openly discuss what's meant to be hidden for the sake of those unfortunate kids.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:45 pm

yksraya wrote:

I know you come from the charedi world but, baruch hashem this isn't an everyday occurrence.
I wasn't referring the passing round aspect, I was referring to just marrying without telling that they are a mamzer, that's not allowed.

MommyM

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:50 pm

yksraya wrote:

I've heard that in the case where someone is a mamzer, it does not get publicized. In fact, it's meant to keep confidential as a mamzer can marry anyone as long as they have no clue. Mamzerim and their kids are only mamzerim till it9 gets forgotten. So if someone did not think of doing a background check when the mamzer was retd to their child, and they get married, they can stay married. I've also heard that it's actually forbidden to go around warning ppl that so and so is a mamzer. If someone asks for shiduch purposes, it can be said, but only if asked.

I am almost 100% sure that if he knows, he is NOT allowed to marry a non- Mamzer. The fact that he is not telling and going ahead and marrying is wrong.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:51 pm

amother wrote:

That's not true. If it's known they can't marry, but if they don't know it's considered forgotten.
If you have sources that prove otherwise, list them. Ty

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:51 pm

Thank you, Etky. I knew a little about the Langer case, but did not know that there had been an original ruling that the twins were mamzerim, which was later rescinded. So it seems that cases of a Beit Din declaring a mamzer are exceedingly rare, but not unheard of.

I agree with you that this shows the lengths to which rabbanim will look for ways to *not* label someone a mamzer. It's also noteworthy that this is a case where the woman had remarried after a non-Kosher divorce. This is totally not the case of yesterday's thread, where the woman was still living with her husband at the time that she purportedly had an affair. In the latter cases, from what I have read, the Beit Din will rule that the child is from the woman's husband, unless he's been away from home from more than a year. But this was not the case. (The real kindness to that woman would not be to bring her a pan of chicken but to explain to her the consequences of her continued testimony against herself. Let her keep her mouth closed, forever, if necessary.)

I understand that there are cases that come up from the FSU in Israel, but I would think that there would be even more cases that come up in the US of people who get married in an Orthodox ceremony to please their parents, then switch to Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism, and wind up getting divorced and remarried. That would seem to be a huge issue, and yet I haven't heard of cases where the children of the second marriage become ba'alei teshuvah and then can't get married. Are they just not investigated? That would seem the most sensible approach.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:54 pm

yksraya wrote:

so find a source. How can you be sure based on what you feel or think is the right way?

It has nothing to do with feelings.
Not interested in giving sources since they always get shouted down by those who don't want to follow them though please don't pass around misinformation.