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Why are they not teaching this (thoroughly) to females?
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 8:25 am
I have a big issue with this.
The suppliers have a great volume. Yes I agree.
But the stores that package it up, don't
The store should also be checking the chicken.
And not sell bruised chicken.
I've gone back to the Mashgiach many times
This bothers me.
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 8:55 am
andrea levy wrote:
Um. I don't know a single person who, when using chicken sold under reliable hashgacha, ever has a Shaila.

I work under hashgacha and I am also just completing a mashgiach course under the COR with guys who have been mashgichim for up to 30 years, and never have I heard word one about questions on meat that was kashered under reliable hashgacha.

I suggest you buy your meat from a more reliable supplier if you constantly have questions about their reliability.

Me too. I have dozens of friends who I speak to constantly. I promise you that none of them ever asked a shaila on a chicken. That's why I buy from a kosher butcher. I trust the mashgiach to check the chickens.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:00 am
DH is a shochet. Once in a blue moon I'll find a chicken with a broken leg or wing, and have him look at it. He can tell if it was broken before or after the chicken was killed. When in doubt, we don't buy it, but usually it was broken afterwards, in the packaging process.

Still, he's picky about meat, so I just have him do all of the meat shopping. I've learned a lot from him.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:04 am
The bluminkrantz Pesach guide talks about this
Great guide
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:37 am
andrea levy wrote:
Um. I don't know a single person who, when using chicken sold under reliable hashgacha, ever has a Shaila.

.


FYI, I have asked shailas numerous times, exactly the kinds of shailas OP mentions. Just because there is a good hashgacha doesn't mean a shaila won't come up, particularly because our poultry and meat come from enormous mass-production facilities that process thousands of birds per hour. They do a good job but they can't be perfect, and every now and then something gets through that shouldn't.

Are you aware that you have to ask a shaila if you see a plum-colored spot on the flesh that looks like pooled blood or a bruise, or if you find a broken bone? Or if you find greenish yellowish oozy stuff? Unless of course you are sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable to know when these things are kosher and when they are tref. I am not.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:48 am
zaq wrote:
FYI, I have asked shailas numerous times, exactly the kinds of shailas OP mentions. Just because there is a good hashgacha doesn't mean a shaila won't come up, particularly because our poultry and meat come from enormous mass-production facilities that process thousands of birds per hour. They do a good job but they can't be perfect, and every now and then something gets through that shouldn't.

Are you aware that you have to ask a shaila if you see a plum-colored spot on the flesh that looks like pooled blood or a bruise, or if you find a broken bone? Or if you find greenish yellowish oozy stuff? Unless of course you are sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable to know when these things are kosher and when they are tref. I am not.


I buy my meats and chicken in a few different places. In all of them, the items are packaged on site with a mashgiach temidi. Can it be that's why I never had a shaila?
I've never seen what you describe and I've been preparing food for around 10-15 years.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:49 am
zaq wrote:
FYI, I have asked shailas numerous times, exactly the kinds of shailas OP mentions. Just because there is a good hashgacha doesn't mean a shaila won't come up, particularly because our poultry and meat come from enormous mass-production facilities that process thousands of birds per hour. They do a good job but they can't be perfect, and every now and then something gets through that shouldn't.

Are you aware that you have to ask a shaila if you see a plum-colored spot on the flesh that looks like pooled blood or a bruise, or if you find a broken bone? Or if you find greenish yellowish oozy stuff? Unless of course you are sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable to know when these things are kosher and when they are tref. I am not.


Also, the OP says she has shailos a third of the time that she makes chicken! Unless she is making chicken about three times a year- something sounds very wrong.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:51 am
And FYI essie14 and others of your superior ilk, not everyone has a kosher butcher to patronize. I didn't even know that such a thing exists any more. Many of us live in places where our sole source of meat and poultry is the kosher meat department of a non-Jewish grocery store, in which everything comes prepackaged from a factory hundreds of miles away. So bully for you that you never have to ask a shaila because your butcher is right there. Count your blessings and have a little respect for those who are not so blessed.

Before my time my HS had a senior-year course in then practice of running a Jewish home, including taharat hamishpacha, laws of challah, and kashrut. Sort of home-ec-meets-halacha. The teacher would bring in a chicken and show how to kasher it as well as what things to look for that can make it tref. By the time I started there, there was no such thing as buying a chicken that hadn't already been kashered, and for that and other reasons the class was discontinued. Really a shame because, while knowing how to parse a pasuk and list nine different interpretations by six different commentaries is a wonderful intellectual exercise, it doesn't help you when your chicken looks suspiciously bloody or battered.And if you are never taught, you will never even know that there is a shaila to ask.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 9:55 am
cnc wrote:
Also, the OP says she has shailos a third of the time that she makes chicken! Unless she is making chicken about three times a year- something sounds very wrong.


So she's either mildly OCD or knows just enough to know that there are shailas but not enough to know when something is not a shaila. So what? That doesn't mean that shailas don't have to be asked. If we were talking about TH, would you say that the fact that some woman asks a shaila about every single bedika every month, while another woman has never needed to ask a shaila in her life, means that shailas don't have to be asked?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:03 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:

2. If you are interested in not having to ask anyone a question about your chickens, why not just learn it yourself?
.


That's OP's complaint--that these things aren't being taught. You can't "just learn it yourself" the way you can listen to Rosetta Stone and learn French. They don't give classes in "how to tell if your bruised chicken is Kosher" in high schools, kallah classes ignore this completely, the Y was interested but couldn't find anyone willing to teach it, and the local County Extension said they considered offering it but it was way outvoted in favor of "How to Field-Dress your Deer to Maximize Meat Yield."
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:12 am
zaq wrote:
So she's either mildly OCD or knows just enough to know that there are shailas but not enough to know when something is not a shaila. So what? That doesn't mean that shailas don't have to be asked. If we were talking about TH, would you say that the fact that some woman asks a shaila about every single bedika every month, while another woman has never needed to ask a shaila in her life, means that shailas don't have to be asked?

THIS! This is what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure why zaq is one of the only ones getting it! I KNOW there are not real shailos a vaguely estimated third of the time, it's just that because I'm not well ENOUGH versed in what is and isn't a problem, I keep having to ask, and I'd rather have learned it right in the first place.

About the kosher butcher with the mashgiach temidi - first of all where I live I do about half or more of my chicken buying in a supermarket with prepackaged factory chickens. SECONDLY and perhaps more relevantly I have had at least as many "shailas" on the on-site repackaged chickens from what is considered a reliable store. Either the same or more. Probably about the same. Also, as I said, almost always it is not a problem - probably due to being roughly handled in the glorious repackaging process. So the mashgiach in both the factory and the frum supermarket are doing their jobs. HOWEVER because I have no way of knowing which ones are the real mistakes, I keep asking.

I do ask less as I learn more. I'm down to once in a while shailas, not a third of the time anymore. DH taught me how real problems get into the flesh, and blood dripping means it's just from a newly burst vein or marrow which is somehow not a problem even though I always learned that blood is treif which is why we bleed out the animal and salt it and that-all. But I had a package of chicken that the pad on the bottom looked like a really bad period or post-op bandage and he said it was totally fine. WHATEVER. Anyway he did say you need to rinse off the loose blood, which is good to know because if there is no blood you definitely should not rinse the chicken and risk splashing salmonella around.
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:16 am
I never knew there was a Sheila do be asked. Maybe the education should start there?

What I would really love to participate in is a class for women with in-depth teaching of the colors of blood for bedikos and white underwear. So that I can look at a bedikah and actually know what I'm looking at instead of assuming.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:20 am
zaq wrote:
So she's either mildly OCD or knows just enough to know that there are shailas but not enough to know when something is not a shaila. So what? That doesn't mean that shailas don't have to be asked. If we were talking about TH, would you say that the fact that some woman asks a shaila about every single bedika every month, while another woman has never needed to ask a shaila in her life, means that shailas don't have to be asked?


My bedika cloth is not coming with a hechsher from someone that I trust.
And when I said something is wrong- in no way did I mean that something is wrong with seeker. I meant that to me it seems like something is wrong with the quality of the chickens.

And based on what you wrote I am starting to believe that the reason I never had a shaila IS because my stuff is repackaged so chances are the butcher and mashgiach sifted through all the questionable pieces already. Because even if it's halachically fine, people may be wary to buy them.

But this is all my guess and I can be totally off base here.
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:23 am
zaq wrote:
That's OP's complaint--that these things aren't being taught. You can't "just learn it yourself" the way you can listen to Rosetta Stone and learn French. They don't give classes in "how to tell if your bruised chicken is Kosher" in high schools, kallah classes ignore this completely, the Y was interested but couldn't find anyone willing to teach it, and the local County Extension said they considered offering it but it was way outvoted in favor of "How to Field-Dress your Deer to Maximize Meat Yield."


It was taught in my school (optional though) and my teacher told us that there are always girls that say it's not something necessary for us to know and those girls are the ones that come back a couple of years years later telling her that they married men (Briskers?) who want the chickens to be prepared at home!
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:47 am
just called the OU about a chicken shailah, they said purple should be cut out and that my half broken bone was probably from after shechita. He said people should definitely be checking their chickens! He also said that sometimes the kidney is left in by accident and should be removed.
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amother
White


 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 10:57 am
seeker wrote:
THIS! This is what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure why zaq is one of the only ones getting it! I KNOW there are not real shailos a vaguely estimated third of the time, it's just that because I'm not well ENOUGH versed in what is and isn't a problem, I keep having to ask, and I'd rather have learned it right in the first place.

About the kosher butcher with the mashgiach temidi - first of all where I live I do about half or more of my chicken buying in a supermarket with prepackaged factory chickens. SECONDLY and perhaps more relevantly I have had at least as many "shailas" on the on-site repackaged chickens from what is considered a reliable store. Either the same or more. Probably about the same. Also, as I said, almost always it is not a problem - probably due to being roughly handled in the glorious repackaging process. So the mashgiach in both the factory and the frum supermarket are doing their jobs. HOWEVER because I have no way of knowing which ones are the real mistakes, I keep asking.

I do ask less as I learn more. I'm down to once in a while shailas, not a third of the time anymore. DH taught me how real problems get into the flesh, and blood dripping means it's just from a newly burst vein or marrow which is somehow not a problem even though I always learned that blood is treif which is why we bleed out the animal and salt it and that-all. But I had a package of chicken that the pad on the bottom looked like a really bad period or post-op bandage and he said it was totally fine. WHATEVER. Anyway he did say you need to rinse off the loose blood, which is good to know because if there is no blood you definitely should not rinse the chicken and risk splashing salmonella around.


You lost me when you said you have sheilos 1 out of 3 times....how is that possible? You must've made chicken hundreds of times and you still have questions that need expertice 1 out of 3 times? How many possible different questions can there be that you still need your dh knowledge. Your saying you've asked him several hundred questions in the last few years and you still need his guidance? I think this is an ocd issue.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 16 2016, 11:13 am
amother wrote:
just called the OU about a chicken shailah, they said purple should be cut out and that my half broken bone was probably from after shechita. He said people should definitely be checking their chickens! He also said that sometimes the kidney is left in by accident and should be removed.


For those who assume that there is no need to check if the chicken comes with a reliable hashgacha, need I remind you that even the best mashgiach is still a human being and by definition fallible? You always have to check. You even have to check your hydroponically-grown leafy greens. They may have been grown bug-free, but the world is crawling with bugs and one or a few may have found their way into the package. I know because I have found 'em. And I wasn't even "checking" in that sense. I was just washing them to get the sand out.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Sat, Dec 17 2016, 12:16 pm
I can't think of any school still teaching cooking and I'm a teacher.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 17 2016, 8:28 pm
In the olden days, up to the early 60's in NJ it was the wife who kashered the chicken. Because we had tiny freezers most poultry was slaughtered the day you were going to use it. Some butcher shops had schochets who would slaughter the fowl for you. You would pay an extra nickel or dime to have it plucked. For folks like my family the schochet would arrive at my aunts (a block away) on a Friday at some point and kill the chicken. Then it had to be plucked, singed and kashered. So the traditional main course of roast chicken and chicken soup wasn't cooked until all the work of kashering was done.

Of course if you had the time and the money you would buy a kashered chicken if it was available. IIRC commercially produced kashered chicken became readily available to us around 1968, and it took over an hour for the round trip to the store that had them. This bit of modernization prompted my mother to buy her first freestanding freezer. Talk about a time saving development.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Sun, Dec 18 2016, 12:25 am
In a chicken factory you have a few mashgichim and tens of thousands of chickens. Do you really think the mashgichim can't miss some blood or bruises? Mashgichim check for certain problems before salting, and make sure the salting is done properly. Though they cant check every chicken-thats impossible.
Most of the processing and packaging are done by minimum wage workers. Some will know to put aside bloody pieces to be checked, others wont bother or care. So shailas are bound to come up.
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