Nanny advice - please no bitter or sarcastic responses

WhatFor

Tue, Dec 20 2016, 11:32 pm

I'm honest at my job but I don't tell my boss everywhere I go after hours. Why would I? Especially if I think my boss wouldn't be happy or would try to pressure me to do more work there... she's your employee, not your best friend.
That alone wouldn't be an issue to me. I don't think it's appropriate for an employer to expect that an employee report to her on her after-hours activities.
As far as train fare, you agreed to provide her with a certain amount of money which was, at least for some time, necessary for her to get home. What would your opinion be if you found out that she was walking all the way home and pocketing the money? Would you also be upset?
She's saving the money and being more resourceful. Maybe it was cheaper for dh to pick her up if they got the train fare money that they could pocket, but that if she didn't get the train fare money, it would be cheaper for her to go home by train for free than for him to drive to pick her up. Not sure if that makes sense, but what I'm finding here overall is that this is a woman who clearly works many many many hours at a job that is not high-paying. (I'm not at all implying that you don't pay her well- I'm saying that generally nannies don't make as much as doctors so she must be desperate.) Now she has a baby.
If she did a good job with your children, and you trust her with them, and you are able to afford to continue paying her for her employment, you should not feel betrayed by her on account of what you just found out and should continue to use her services.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 20 2016, 11:59 pm

tf wrote:

1- What difference does it make to you if she takes train, bus, car, etc. etc. It was what you have decided to do and that's it.
2- How in this world do you want to believe a person who doesn't have a Torah and Mitzvahs? There is absolutely no reason for her not to lie. Nobody will punish her for it, and she'll make a few extra dollars.
3- Similar to the second, why do you trust such a person with anything, not only money? Unless you have electronic devices monitoring her every move, you cannot be certain that she doesn't do something with your kid, or in the house. Around you she will definitely play it safe and comply with your interests, but as soon as you turn your back, she is her own boss. Nobody sees. She won't leave a sign indicating her neglect. Just because you are accustomed to her and know her for a while, doesn't make her reliable. In fact, professional cheaters wait until they are fully trusted before they start with their blacklashings (or whatever you want to call it).

Wow. Have you never heard of people just being good and ethical, regardless of their religious beliefs?
I dont understand how people can really think this.
Torah and mitzvot dont make us less likely to lie and not having torah and mitzvot doesnt make it more likely that someone will lie.

ora_43

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 12:06 am

I think it's not nice of you to leave her without any clarity about her employment status. She told you months ago that she was planning to come back to work in January, why are you only deciding now whether to take her back??? If you wanted to switch nannies, you should have told her that and given her time to look for a new job.

Leaving to have a baby is not quitting. You're acting like she quit her job and now you get to take your time deciding whether she gets to come back, but that's not what happened. She had a baby, and it was agreed that she would leave and come back (if you didn't say anything when she said she was coming back, that's you agreeing... ).

You don't have to keep employing her. You decide who you trust with your kids and who you think is better with them.

But you do have to treat your employees decently and give them notice if you want to terminate their employment, not just suddenly leave them in the lurch with no pay. And especially not keep them on as employees without paying them. Right now you're getting all the benefits of an employee - you expect her to be ready to come back to work in January, as planned, and haven't told her she's free to seek other employment - without giving anything in return (unless she's getting paid maternity leave, but I doubt that). A woman who was working 11-12 hour days while 7 months pregnant REALLY REALLY can't afford to be jerked around like that! She obviously really needs the work.

ora_43

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 12:08 am

If you're worried about the train fare issue, ask her directly. I don't think it's fair to decide re: her honesty based on what a third party thinks she maybe saw happen. I mean, you don't even have someone telling you that the nanny definitely lied - just that she thinks maybe sometimes... nothing certain.

I do agree with previous posters that you should pay her train fare even if she works two hours somewhere else. The full-time employer is the one responsible for transportation fees. And like a previous poster said - would you really save money if her husband picks her up? That costs money, too. (gas, etc)

amother

Ivory

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 6:23 am

tf wrote:

The OP asked for no bitter or sarcastic responses - I guess she should have also asked for no bashing.

Many of us have non-Jews working for us, in our homes, our businesses and our schools. They are not all liars and thieves. They're not even mostly liars and thieves. B"H for my non jewish housekeeper. She is wonderful and makes my home life immeasurably more pleasurable. B"H for the hundreds of non jewish workers I employed in my 10 years as an HR exec. Were they all great hires? No. But percentage-wise, no more or less than my Jewish hires. B"H for the amazing non-Jewish teachers my kids have had (in their Jewish schools). I am glad our schools have the sense to realize that it's better to hire the best math or science teacher over one who's just so-so but Jewish.

Anyhow... I think your attitude is awful, but it's your right to have it. As to why you would post something so utterly unhelpful to the OP though is beyond me.

Fox

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 6:40 am

WhatFor wrote:

what I'm finding here overall is that this is a woman who clearly works many many many hours at a job that is not high-paying. (I'm not at all implying that you don't pay her well- I'm saying that generally nannies don't make as much as doctors so she must be desperate.) Now she has a baby.
If she did a good job with your children, and you trust her with them, and you are able to afford to continue paying her for her employment, you should not feel betrayed by her on account of what you just found out and should continue to use her services.

How many threads do we have where Imamothers encourage one another to be resourceful and work hard in order to avoid financial difficulties? How many threads do we have where Imamothers encourage one another when an employer is unsympathetic to the difficulties of pregnancy and childbearing?

We have to treat others, including non-Jews, the way we want to be treated.

The only consideration, OP, should be whether or not you are pleased with the job done by your original nanny. Actually, a woman who works hards, doesn't complain, takes advantage of opportunities, practices fiscal responsibility . . . sounds like a pretty good role model!

She is pretty obviously scared of losing her income and about her job security, so why not put her at ease? In another thread, MagentaYenta mentioned how many problems can be avoided or solved simply by talking to people, and I think that's something that we all tend to overlook or dismiss. Why not let her know how much you value her work; make sure she understands your expectations (sounds like she already does); share any concerns you have; and tell you that she can come to you with problems and you'll try to work with her.

On a side note, I've never understood why people are reluctant to recommend household staff to their friends and neighbors. Yes, I get the "poaching" problem, though I notice that none of us gets too riled up about it when we or our husbands are offered better jobs. But if I like a particular cleaning lady, why wouldn't I want her to find extra work in the neighborhood? IME, she's more likely to stay (and stay motivated!) if she can keep as busy as she wants.

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 7:11 am

Fox wrote:

THIS.

But I do think that there should be a discussion before she returns.

(1) If you would like her to work extra hours, tell her that you heard that she had been working for another family after leaving your home. In fact, you could use some extra hours if she's interested. [If you don't need extra hours, let it be. So long as she's doing her job for you, what she does afterwards isn't your business.]

(2) What are your respective expectations in terms of her own child care responsibilities. Can she bring the baby to work with her if the baby is sick, or if her own childcare falls through for the day? [We were fine with that. Others I know were OK with the baby at their home full time, but reduced pay a little for this accommodation.]

(3) Because you're going to have to let go the person who watched the kids while she was out, you'd like a 6-month commitment from her.

(4) I'd get rid of the transit stipend. Too much misunderstanding. Increase her salary to include what you were giving her, and tell her that's the salary.

Talya

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 7:50 am

finallyamommy wrote:

In Israel, at least, it's standard to pay travel expenses. I think it's legally required, certainly for full-time jobs. The way one employer explained it to me was "You can walk to work and spend the travel fare on whatever you want, but I'm obligated to include it in your salary." I really don't see a problem, unless as another person said she's trying to get train fare out of both you and her other job.

I STILL don't see a problem with that. She's allowed to request travel expenses and if it was agreed that would get it she can still request it from another employer and collect it if that was agreed upon. The fact that they live near each other has no bearing on it. What if she simply wants to go home in between? Then she needs the second ride. What if she decides to forego going home in between. Does she not have the same right? The only way I see out of it is if you and a neighbor decide to hire her together and split the cost. Otherwise she is doing nothing wrong and let her enjoy the money.

I'd also advise against cutting her pay at this point. That will make her unhappy and maybe encourage her to look elsewhere. The only thing that you may be able to get around is say she can bring her baby in exchange for the travel expense. That way she is happy and you save money.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 8:06 am

Eh. I am highly suspicious of people replying who have never gone through the whole nanny process. Again and again. Round and around. Every year or two or three. So here's my full disclosure: 11-12 years of nanny employment experience, 7 nannies to date (1st had a baby and moved away, next got into a car accident and couldn't work, next I fired after left my kid alone at the library while she did errands, next went on vacation and never came back, next finished school andvmoved on to "real" job, next gave 2 week notice and left, not sure why, but was mediocre anyway. Very happy with current one, hope she works out long term).
You employ a nanny because you need one. Not for fun or pleasure. It's a necessity for whatever reason. And that means the nanny must be reliable and competent or else your life falls apart. That means that if your nanny is not living up to her end by making your life work, and hopefully making your life work more smoothly, it isn't working out for you. And it's time to look for a replacement. It would be so nice to give benefits, bonuses, vacations, raises, sick days, gourmet food and foot messages, but that's not the way it works. The same way the nanny would dump you from one day to the next if they were offered an easier job (no commute, less kids, no cleaning required, shorter hours, etc etc) with a higher salary, you get to choose another nanny if she isn't doing the job you need her to do. Of course you do it in as nice of a way as possible (advance notice, compensation, letter of recommendation), but YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO EMPLOY HER IF YOU ARENT HAPPY WITH HER WORK. This isn't your toilets or your front lawn, it's your kids. You need to be happy in your heart with the care they are getting when you can't be there. Period. I don't care if it's not PC and un liberal and taking advantage of someone who is underprivileged with few employment options. That's not on me. What's on my is that I treat her like a mentch and compensate her fairly for the work she does for me.
Zehu. I would feel zero guilt replacing her while she's on maternity leave if in my heart her trustworthiness is questionable, as is her overall loyalty to me. The same way she would not be calling me and telling me she's ready to come back had something better come up for her during her leave. She likely wouldn't have even thought to call and notify you had a more exciting employment opportunity come up. And she would lose no sleep over leaving me.
So your options are to take her back because you want her or to tell her you don't need her anymore if you don't want her. What you can't do is hire her for the few weeks replacement nanny is away and then dismiss her when replacement nanny returns. That's not mentchlach (and in the back of your mind be aware that perhaps replacement nanny won't be coming back after her few weeks away either...), you will need to come up with a temporary solution for that month. So think it through and decide which way you want to go. Hatzlacha!

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 8:36 am

FTR, I've done the nanny thing as well.

Our first nanny did something we felt endangered a child, so we fired her.

Our next nanny was someone we knew from the playground. She's been with us for 17 years now, except for a couple of extended vacations. She loves my kids like her own, and I trust her with their lives.

This is a personal service industry, and its best treated as such. I'm going to buy a new watch from the person who gives me the best price; I don't care if he's a nice guy, or shows up for work on time, or much of anything else about him except his price. But I need to LIKE our nanny, and she needs to like me and the kids. I hope we treat her well. Eg, she was just out for 2 weeks for surgery. She didn't ask to be paid, but we paid her 50%. Because we can. Because she needs it. Because its right. Because we need her. Because she's not fungible.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 9:02 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Completely on the same page as you, agree 100% and I also found your advice on this thread in general on the ball and helpful. I just don't think the bending over backwards and stepping on eggshells because the employer seems to have the upper hand in this relationship from other posters to be practical or helpful at all.

ora_43

Wed, Dec 21 2016, 9:59 pm

amother wrote:

That means that if your nanny is not living up to her end by making your life work, and hopefully making your life work more smoothly, it isn't working out for you. And it's time to look for a replacement. It would be so nice to give benefits, bonuses, vacations, raises, sick days, gourmet food and foot messages, but that's not the way it works.

Find me ONE poster who has said that OP has any kind of obligation to keep employing her first nanny.

There are only two kinds of "pro-nanny" responses here:
1. It would be foolish to give up a reliable, competent employee based on hearsay, and/or to lose her over a relatively small amount of money (the difference between train fare and gas). This type of comment is absolutely coming from experience!!

2. You have to treat the nanny nicely. As in, give her (in this case, unpaid!) advance notice to find a new job. Not foot rubs Rolling Eyes

.

It disturbs me to think what part of previous posts could possibly have been read as people saying employers need to "bend over backwards" for their nannies. Do you think that not firing an employee based on a rumor is "bending over backward," or were you referring to the radical concept of not firing a woman for going on maternity leave?

imasinger

Thu, Dec 22 2016, 3:07 am

I like what Fox and SixofWands already said.

I'm more concerned by your having heard earlier that she was complaining about you and looking for another job. It would be really annoying to get rid of this temp whom you seem to like better in spite of the language issue, only to have the new mom quit in 6 months.

And I wonder what you didn't say that makes you like the temp better. Is she sweeter and more flexible, but you're afraid you won't be able to find someone like that long term, and are afraid of losing the long term one you had and not finding anyone you like?

How realistic is that anxiety? Very likely? A little likely? Very unlikely?

I think you should sit down and talk with her, give her a chance to sit her grievances, and you air yours.

Personally, I don't think she owes you the right of first refusal for extra hours (if she wants to work 6-8 pm somewhere else rather than asking you first). But that's JMO.

And, more importantly, it's secondary to the bigger issues.