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S/o -Better to get married/divorced than break engagement??
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watergirl









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 9:23 am
I'll post this here.

If people really do hold that its better to get divorced than break an engagement, or even required if there was a tanoyim, why not hold a small wedding with a minyan, no guests, no gifts, etc? Why force people to spend all the money, why force guests to pay for gifts and babysitters, if you know that its all for naught? Does anyone do this?

And if people go through with the wedding, knowing they will get divorced, does the couple have to try to "make it work" before they will be a get given? Is more pressure applied? Or do they let the couple out of the marriage right away?
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 9:27 am
watergirl wrote:
I'll post this here.

If people really do hold that its better to get divorced than break an engagement, or even required if there was a tanoyim, why not hold a small wedding with a minyan, no guests, no gifts, etc? Why force people to spend all the money, why force guests to pay for gifts and babysitters, if you know that its all for naught? Does anyone do this?

And if people go through with the wedding, knowing they will get divorced, does the couple have to try to "make it work" before they will be a get given? Is more pressure applied? Or do they let the couple out of the marriage right away?


I don't know what people do, but for that reason Chabad does not do thr tanoyim until the day of the chssunoh, so we don't have problems of a broken engagement.
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amother




Scarlet


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 9:30 am
we also didn't do tenaim until the wedding and I'm not lebavitch. I remember being at an engagement party and they did the tenaim, I was shocked and hoped really hard that they didn't have any second thoughts...
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 10:00 am
I don't understand how anyone could actually believe that would be better
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Chayalle









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 10:06 am
I don't think there are many people who actually do this. I've heard of a "Rebbish" person who did this but have never heard of anyone else.

I think, though, that by most Chassidim it's a non-issue. The chassan and kallah don't even see each other during the engagement, so it would be rare for them to have a reason to break a shidduch, if they committed at the engagement. Nothing new usually comes up.

I would never allow a child of mine to have a tenoyim until before the Chuppah.
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leah233









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 10:11 am
watergirl wrote:
I'll post this here.

If people really do hold that its better to get divorced than break an engagement, or even required if there was a tanoyim, why not hold a small wedding with a minyan, no guests, no gifts, etc? Why force people to spend all the money, why force guests to pay for gifts and babysitters, if you know that its all for naught? Does anyone do this?


Yes. From what I heard those who are making a chasuna only because they have no other way to break the Tanoim do in fact make the chasuna as you described.
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seeker









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 11:39 am
I think the "better married and divorced" thing is a legal technicality - throwback to the times when marriage halachos were established. Seems like the tena'im and the wedding/kesubah are two different types of contracts, and only one has a "return policy" so to speak. I imagine in the case of a broken engagement, the "wedding" and "divorce" are similarly just formalities and not a real involved affair.
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cnc









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 12:49 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I don't think there are many people who actually do this. I've heard of a "Rebbish" person who did this but have never heard of anyone else.

I think, though, that by most Chassidim it's a non-issue. The chassan and kallah don't even see each other during the engagement, so it would be rare for them to have a reason to break a shidduch, if they committed at the engagement. Nothing new usually comes up.

I would never allow a child of mine to have a tenoyim until before the Chuppah.


I know quite a few cases where it was done unfortunately.
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cnc









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 12:52 pm
seeker wrote:
I think the "better married and divorced" thing is a legal technicality - throwback to the times when marriage halachos were established. Seems like the tena'im and the wedding/kesubah are two different types of contracts, and only one has a "return policy" so to speak. I imagine in the case of a broken engagement, the "wedding" and "divorce" are similarly just formalities and not a real involved affair.


I now a few cases where it was done with a regular wedding. Some went through Sheva Brachos and divorced the day after. Some divorced immediately after the wedding.

I also don't understand why they went through the entire wedding. Maybe the parents or the boy or girl was still hoping that there's some chance of it working out?
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amother




Mustard


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 1:20 pm
cnc wrote:
I know quite a few cases where it was done unfortunately.


Like mentioned above, with Chassidish people who have Tnoyim, They look into the boy and girl and family with a fine tooth comb, and boy and girl dont see each other, so what happenedafter the Tnoyim that made these people want to break the Shidduch?
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cnc









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 1:33 pm
amother wrote:
Like mentioned above, with Chassidish people who have Tnoyim, They look into the boy and girl and family with a fine tooth comb, and boy and girl dont see each other, so what happenedafter the Tnoyim that made these people want to break the Shidduch?


yes, they all had a tnoyim.

you're welcome to PM me if you need specific details, in one scenario something happened after the tenoyim(illness)- in other scenarios, red flags came up that were not there before.

Are you saying that surprises never appear and chassidim never get divorced?
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amother




Tan


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 1:41 pm
amother wrote:
Like mentioned above, with Chassidish people who have Tnoyim, They look into the boy and girl and family with a fine tooth comb, and boy and girl dont see each other, so what happenedafter the Tnoyim that made these people want to break the Shidduch?


I don't know any stories personally, but it's not hard to imagine someone suddenly panicking that they agreed to marry someone they hardly know and getting cold feet.
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amother




Cobalt


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 1:41 pm
I don't know what people do, but for that reason Chabad does not do thr tanoyim until the day of the chssunoh, so we don't have problems of a broken engagement.

As a Lubavitcher, I had a broken engagement and even without Tenaim it wasn't so simple. There was a formal process in returning gifts and asking mechila. It was a long time ago and I pretty much let my parents deal with it so I don't remember the details. But I think the mechila had a lot to do with future shiddichim.
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amother




Pumpkin


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 2:37 pm
I was once at a vort where the girl's family wanted to do tenayom. The boy's family said it wasn't their minhag and didn't do it.
They did break their engagement. I remember being so relieved for them that they didn't do the tenoyim at the vort.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 2:44 pm
I know somebody who is not chassidish (JPF with MO leanings) who found out terrible information about her finance at the beginning of their engagement. She cried that she didn't want to break up the engagement because she'd have a worse name out there if she had a broken engagement in her past then if she'd have a divorce. I tried really hard to convince her otherwise but no amount of logic and reason would make her change her mind.
She went through with the engagement. Dealt with abuse. Married. It escalated to physical abuse long before children were in the picture. Still she wouldn't divorce him. It was only after many years of marriage and abuse and children that she finally divorced. And now unfortunately she is struggling with a blended family in a new marriage. I'm happy that she's remarried but so sad about what could have been avoided.
It's just a twisted set of logic, imagined reputations and stature. Nothing to do with a tenoim contract.
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seeker









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 3:28 pm
OK, that's really weird. I'm assuming there are other background issues in this story. In what universe is a broken engagement more stigmatized than divorce? People tend to forget an engagement much more quickly than a marriage, especially if they were at the wedding.
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 3:32 pm
amother wrote:
I don't know what people do, but for that reason Chabad does not do thr tanoyim until the day of the chssunoh, so we don't have problems of a broken engagement.

As a Lubavitcher, I had a broken engagement and even without Tenaim it wasn't so simple. There was a formal process in returning gifts and asking mechila. It was a long time ago and I pretty much let my parents deal with it so I don't remember the details. But I think the mechila had a lot to do with future shiddichim.


Yes, there is a formal process, but there isn't a halochik question of undoing the tenoyim.
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cnc









  


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 3:40 pm
seeker wrote:
OK, that's really weird. I'm assuming there are other background issues in this story. In what universe is a broken engagement more stigmatized than divorce? People tend to forget an engagement much more quickly than a marriage, especially if they were at the wedding.


I also find it surprising (the stigma). Divorce is much more stigmatized than a broken engagement in my world.
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amother




Peach


Post  Fri, Dec 23 2016, 3:40 pm
I think on a practical level this is just a bunch of mikva yenta shpeel. Sure, we know someone who knows somebody who has a cousin who has a rebbe with a long beard that says it's better to get divorced than to break an engagement. I'm sure that you, the person reading this right now, wouldn't agree or actually live by that philosophy.
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imasoftov









  


Post  Sat, Dec 24 2016, 1:15 pm
watergirl wrote:
I'll post this here.

If people really do hold that its better to get divorced than break an engagement, or even required if there was a tanoyim, why not hold a small wedding with a minyan, no guests, no gifts, etc? Why force people to spend all the money, why force guests to pay for gifts and babysitters, if you know that its all for naught? Does anyone do this?

And if people go through with the wedding, knowing they will get divorced, does the couple have to try to "make it work" before they will be a get given? Is more pressure applied? Or do they let the couple out of the marriage right away?

Well I am not part of this world, but *do* they have a large wedding with lots of guests, gifts, etc in this situation?
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