What is the meaning

seeker

Sat, Dec 24 2016, 10:35 pm

of teaching the Chanukah story of Yehudis to young children?

I just can't figure out what the lesson is, or at least not anything strong enough to explain why this is one of the few main featured things they are learning about having to do with Chanukah. Besides the core Chanukah story, it was this and Chana with her seven sons - whose moral is very clear.

TBH the Yehudis story sounds very different to adult ears... not that I have any issue per se with my young kids hearing a sanitized version, but still begs the question, "Why?"

etky

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 12:38 am

Judiith can be viewed as the feminine counterpart of the Maccabees, in that her story echoes some of the main themes of Chanukkah - the גבורה of the Maccabees לשם שמים, the few (in her case merely one) versus the many, the weak versus the powerful, who ultimately were victorious because Hashem backed their daring initiative to throw off the yoke of the oppressor while many of their coreligionists were ready to acculturate or, in Judith's case, physically surrender to the Hellenists.
And of course, the importance of spotlighting a female heroine whose activist stance is a nice foil to the martyrdom theme of the Channa story.

greenfire

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 12:30 pm

was thinking about it ... because I wasn't sure how to answer as I don't like to scare kids

however, just like any other part of history - in this case jewish history - things are important to know

many women were arguing to their husbands to protect them from the greeks who wanted defile the women & they wouldn't put up with it ... yehudis took a stand & went to the general albeit with a plan like no other: give him salty cheese he'll drink tons [wine was like water in those days & maybe still to the french] fall asleep & cut off his head

an army will feel defeated with their king's head on display so they ran

it says in the merit of righteous women we were redeemed from galus ... we have always been the brains convincing men what to do ...

the 10 macos are scary too & we celebrate pesach

esther listened to mordechai who convinced achashveirosh - hence we celebrate purim

matisyahu & his 5 sons merely listened to the women & we were saved with enough oil for 1 night that lasted for 8

bottom line is that we don't shield our children - we empower them with truth & that is how the jews have survived

greenfire

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

My question is why they teach about Chana and her seven sons to young children in kindergarten!

It is a horror story that young children really do not have to hear....

that is traumatizing even to an adult ...

there's a song with a similar outcome where a boy cut off his fingers - leaving the ones for tefillin - before he would ever turn away from hashem ...

cinnabuns

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 1:28 pm

I remember hearing these stories as a kid and actually not being too traumatized from them.. it was like a cool story.
Kids who read non Jewish books are exposed to all sorts of scary books and novels and all sorts of terrifying stories. And yet when it comes to the Jewish history, we shelter them?
I was more scared of the non Jewish books I've read than the story of Chana...

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 2:28 pm

It isn't just to have a female heroine and explain why Mommy's not doing laundry or sewing after candlelighting. IIRC the gemara itself says that women were also part of the neis, specifically referring to the story of Yehudis. I will be happy to have this clarified, too tired and not enough time to research now.

greenfire

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 3:18 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

since women were part of the neis ... some hold women light chanuka candles too ... women should not work while the candles burn [usually the first 30 min] ... some eat dairy [wonder how cheese latkes taste]

seeker

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 8:29 pm

amother wrote:

My question is why they teach about Chana and her seven sons to young children in kindergarten!

It is a horror story that young children really do not have to hear....

I feel like in general kids don't take these things to heart so much. Maybe it's different for kids who have been traumatically close to death but for most kids it seems like you can tell stories about people dying and it's just impressive - a very impressive story about these people's loyalty to Hashem.

I should ask DD to tell me that story, too. She didn't happen to talk much about it, but Yehudis I got every gory detail. Listening to my 6 year old excitedly relate how Yehudis sliced off Heliphornus's head and took it back in her basket... I guess maybe I've just gotten sensitive? It's pretty nasty.

I guess I hear the point about her being a female counterpart to the Maccabees... but in retrospect, realizing that she must have been in a very special profession to accomplish this particular mission... I'm OK with it after some processing but then it does seem like an interesting choice of childhood legend.

octopus

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 8:39 pm

seeker wrote:

Yehudis was not in a "special profession." She was a widow (was it to a kohen gadol?). It is a hard story to understand. So is Yael in shoftim (or was it yehoshua?). And kids learn about that story in fourth grade! And she was not in a special profession either.

octopus

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 9:59 pm

seeker wrote:

How else do you get into the general's private chambers privately, to feed them cheese and wine, and then murder them with no one seeing, and then leave with nobody asking any questions? If you're not in a special profession then you need to at least pretend to be...

Yes, she did present herself as a beautiful woman who was ready to give herself to the general (I don't think she presented herself as a woman of the night. Rather she presented herself as a woman who wished to curry favor with the opposing side that was presumed to win the war). I do think it is hard for us to understand why it's okay for a jewish woman to use seduction as a means of getting to the enemy. It's really hard to understand. I don't have any good answers, but as I see it, she risked her life (things could have gone badly and she could've gotten caught) and she did it l'shem shamayim.

seeker

Sun, Dec 25 2016, 10:19 pm

I don't have an issue with what she did exactly... it's more a question of whether it's worth whitewashing the story for little kids. And then wondering what their reaction is going to be when they realize they've been duped all along. It happens to be I'm a little slow on the uptake but if I would have realized this in my teens which I bet many would, I wonder what I would have said both about the story and about those who teach it.

trixx

Mon, Dec 26 2016, 12:04 am

seeker wrote:

Isn't that part of learning, to revisit things you think you learned and be able to understand them on a deeper level when more mature.

Esther "not being called to the king for 30 days and risking her life" uh translation, she went for a very private audience. Ofc I only learned that in high school which is when the light bulb went on and you can appreciate her self-sacrifice that much more (giving up her marriage to Mordechai because no longer an oness (forced) when with Achashverosh).

Yehudis went to convince Helifornus. Then you get older and realize convince means seduce. Nu.

etky

Mon, Dec 26 2016, 12:55 am

seeker wrote:

If it makes it any more palatable - Judith did not actually sleep with Holofornes.
She remained chaste (and is proud of this fact) by killing him before he could 'defile' her.
Yes, she did use her feminine wiles and her beauty to achieve her goals - but that is a common enough theme in biblical and post-biblical literature. A woman's beauty - whether she actively exploited it or not, was often a significant determinant of her fate. As other posters said, children know this fact, especially from the Esther story.
And Judith was a reputable widow her in home town, known for her piety as well as her beauty.
The story emphasizes her wisdom - her plan and strategy for saving her town in which the seduction scene is but the final culmination. It also includes several lengthy prayers that she uttered at various stages of the plan's execution.
By the way, though not in Tanach, the book of Judith is canonical for Catholic and several Christian Orthodox denominations (and is in the Seputagint as well). She was also a very popular subject in Christian art, alongside other pious and virtuous women.

seeker

Mon, Dec 26 2016, 1:00 am

So maybe the question instead should be, what practical lessons can we take from this use of beauty as a strength, and then after that is answered, how can we relay that to our children?

Maybe we should teach more about how Judith was known for her piety. I actually never recall learning that detail. More about the exciting story thing.

Etky, thanks for that interesting background. I didn't even know there was a book of Judith.

As for the Purim story, I don't have this question there because Esther IS the Purim story. Every man, woman, and child listens to the megillah twice every Purim. So that doesn't beg the question "Out of all the things that happened on Purim, why are we choosing the seductive-but-don't-say-that incident?"