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Deena bat Yaakov
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 29 2016, 12:49 pm
You guys mind discussing her story with me a bit?

So - she was "supposed to" be male but Leah prayed and she was changed to be female.

When Yaakov met with his brother, he hid Deena in a box so he wouldn't take her as a wife. Chazal say that he was punished for this because she could have been a positive influence on Aisav.

We know that she went out to meet some local women in Shechem, got kidnapped and then raped - and impregnated. (Yosef haTzaddik's wife was related to the rapist!)

Ok - The question is asked why Hashem didn't protect Deena the way he protected Sara Imeinu in Paro's palace. It is said that this was a punishment for Yaakov!

A punishment for not giving Hashem 1/10th of his possessions, for not giving her to Aisav.

Can someone please help me process this? I've allllways had a hard time with this. A woman gets raped as a punishment to her father?? It just leave a terrible taste in my mouth. I thought children don't get punished because of their parents' sins? And in such a horrific way..

Thoughts? :-)
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 29 2016, 12:57 pm
http://www.aish.com/jl/b/women......html

I'm just skimming this now, to confirm something I wasn't 100% sure of.
Her daughter married Yosef. She was the other of Menashe and Efraim, who taught us how to endure, uncompromisingly in galus. Why it had to happen this way, maybe it's covered in the article. But the results are something many of us think of every week as we - or our husbands - bensch our children....
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 29 2016, 1:14 pm
So Efraim and Mensashe were part Canaanite! But they are a cursed nation!
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 29 2016, 6:33 pm
evie wrote:
So Efraim and Mensashe were part Canaanite! But they are a cursed nation!

So were two out of three of Yehuda's surviving children.

In Bereshit Rabba 84, there are two opinions about who all the sons of Yaakov married, R Yehuda says each was born with a twin sister which they married, R Nechemia says they married Canaanites. Rashi brings this Midrash on Bereshit 37:35

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=true
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Moonlight




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 29 2016, 9:48 pm
Also, they say it was also a punishment/consequence for Deena because she "went out"....
Not just for her father's sin. They were both punished for their wrong doings
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 1:39 am
imasoftov wrote:
So were two out of three of Yehuda's surviving children.

In Bereshit Rabba 84, there are two opinions about who all the sons of Yaakov married, R Yehuda says each was born with a twin sister which they married, R Nechemia says they married Canaanites. Rashi brings this Midrash on Bereshit 37:35

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=true


Including, of course, David Hamelech's progenitor, Peretz.
However, there is also an exegetical attempt by some-against the implicit pshat-to portray Tamar (along with the wives of the shvatim), not as a Canaanite but as a member of another, less objectionable nation like the Aramites.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 1:48 am
Moonlight wrote:
Also, they say it was also a punishment/consequence for Deena because she "went out"....
Not just for her father's sin. They were both punished for their wrong doings


I absolutely hate this "blame the victim" approach of chazal.
Also because it imputes Dina's 'looseness' to her mother Leah (through the use of the verb ותצא in both stories) who IMO is deserving of a bit more compassion than that.
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cinnabuns




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 1:53 am
The Satan would do whatever it takes to stop the birth of moshiach. So anything that has to do with the direct ancestors of moshiach had to be dirty- so the Satan would say 'oh, this is not a clean situation, I'm not gonna touch it'. The nation of Moav, who rus comes from, came from lot and his two daughters. His daughters assumed the world had come to an end, and were intimate. I forget the name of the other nation that came from the other sister. Rus was with Boaz in an 'untznius' manner- and Dovid came from her. Tamar and Yehuda- same thing, moshiach comes from them. Dinah's daughter from this act married Yosef, and menashe and efraim came from them, also ancestors to moshiach....
It's kind of like, who are we kidding, fooling the Satan.. moshiach is such a lofty soul and concept, if this would have been done 'normally' then people would notice and prevent, kill, wtvr it took for the nations not to continue..
Will try and find the source for this, I learned this in high school and it stuck with me since..
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 3:14 am
etky wrote:
I absolutely hate this "blame the victim" approach of chazal.
Also because it imputes Dina's 'looseness' to her mother Leah (through the use of the verb ותצא in both stories) who IMO is deserving of a bit more compassion than that.


The aish.com article cited above takes an opposite approach, saying that it wasn't her fault at all.
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 3:18 am
I'm so confused about something. I learned that Noach cursed Canaan, his grandson, because Cham (and his two brothers) has already been blessed by Hashem and a human curse wouldn't do anything. I don't know, this is just confusing to me. I thought there was 0 Canaanite blood in the Jewish people...!
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Debbie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 5:30 am
I admit to not really understanding this, Eisav had grown up with tzadikim and had not been influenced by them,I can't help but wonder why Deena who could only have been a child could have made such a difference. In my humble opinion Yaakov protected his child as any good father would.
Also the idea of a man of Eisav's age with a girl of Deena's age disturbs me.
As for the rape,I intensely dislike the blame the victim approach.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 8:40 am
etky wrote:
Including, of course, David Hamelech's progenitor, Peretz.
However, there is also an exegetical attempt by some-against the implicit pshat-to portray Tamar (along with the wives of the shvatim), not as a Canaanite but as a member of another, less objectionable nation like the Aramites.


I thought Tamar was the daughter of Shem.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 8:42 am
evie wrote:
I'm so confused about something. I learned that Noach cursed Canaan, his grandson, because Cham (and his two brothers) has already been blessed by Hashem and a human curse wouldn't do anything. I don't know, this is just confusing to me. I thought there was 0 Canaanite blood in the Jewish people...!


Hey, there's Amaleki blood in the Jewish people. I'm trying to remember apropos to what I just heard this (maybe Rabbi Reisman on the concept of respecting a cheftza shel mitzvah?) but because a Kiddush Hashem happened through Haman, there existed the possibility for something good, like his children joining the Jewish people, to come out through him.
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 8:45 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I thought Tamar was the daughter of Shem.


This isn't also what I learned
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evie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 8:46 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Hey, there's Amaleki blood in the Jewish people. I'm trying to remember apropos to what I just heard this (maybe Rabbi Reisman on the concept of respecting a cheftza shel mitzvah?) but because a Kiddush Hashem happened through Haman, there existed the possibility for something good, like his children joining the Jewish people, to come out through him.


wha...?!

Will have to come back after Shabbat. Whoa...
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 10:29 am
Yeah. Very confusing story.

I always took comfort in Shimon and Levi's response to the crime, they were angry on her behalf and stepped in to punish the perps.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 10:38 am
Yes, except yakov spoke out against shimon and Levi for killing them all. Shouldn't they have been praised for that?!
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 10:56 am
studying_torah wrote:
Yes, except yakov spoke out against shimon and Levi for killing them all. Shouldn't they have been praised for that?!


Arur Apom Ki Az....he cursed their anger, not their action.

Their acted out of anger, not logically. They put the family of Yaakov in danger, and read the medrash, which says they were attacked by the surrounding nations for this act, and very nearly annihilated.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 11:00 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Hey, there's Amaleki blood in the Jewish people. I'm trying to remember apropos to what I just heard this (maybe Rabbi Reisman on the concept of respecting a cheftza shel mitzvah?) but because a Kiddush Hashem happened through Haman, there existed the possibility for something good, like his children joining the Jewish people, to come out through him.


Bnai Banav shel Haman Yoshvim V'Lomdim Torah B'Bnai Brak. I forget which, but one of the tanaim that are mentioned in the Haggada as being up all night with sipur yetzias mitzrayim was supposedly a descendant of Haman....I remember learning this at some point but don't have a source.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 30 2016, 11:03 am
evie wrote:
So Efraim and Mensashe were part Canaanite! But they are a cursed nation!


Yichus goes by the mother according to the Torah. So Yitzchak could not marry a Canaanite....but Efraim and Menashe being the children of Shechem, they get their yichus from their mother.

And I also learned that Tamar was the daughter of Shem....that is why, when she was considered and adulteress, her punishment was to be burned, as that is the punishment for adultery for the daughter of a Kohain...and Shem was a priest. He lost the Kehuna because he blessed Avraham before blessing Hashem...or something like that.
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