"Part of the downside of living in a vibrant Jewish..."

amother

Fuchsia

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 7:52 pm

“Part of the downside of living in a vibrant Jewish community such as Borough Park is that you have very little interaction with the outside word, if you don’t want to,” he (Friedlander) said.

How would this be a downside, in the eyes of a Chassidic person?

This is a quote from an article discussing the frum community's support for Trump.

Im not Chassidic, and I dont share Friedlander's views, but Im puzzled by a Chassidic person's view that not mixing with the outside world is a downside of living in frum neighborhoods.

If you dont want to interact with the outside world, why is it a downside in Friedlander's eyes, who I know is Chassidic and I assume is raising his children Chassidic?

An important part of Chassidic peole's lives is separation from the irreligious and non Jewish population.

http://forward.com/news/358676.....heir/

amother

cornflower

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:12 pm

A Chassidishe rebbetzin once said to me that not only do you not grow intellectually when you live in Boro Park, you actually become stupid. (Anon because I have mentioned this to others and because she's a relative.)

She was probably unusually frustrated, having grown up in a world where frum Jews read newspapers and books. She herself had a decent secular education. None of that is possible anymore, and her children and grandchildren grew up in a far more restricted world.

Great ideas happen in places where different ideas meet. A world that isn't in contact with anything else doesn't grow. If you don't grow, you die. Not all at once, of course, and I don't wish it on our insular communities. (But consider that violence is most common in communities with the least contact with the outside world. That has to mean something.)

What I see is that new ideas do make their way in, but access is restricted.

youngishbear

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:13 pm

amother wrote:

Since he is clear that he didn't vote for Trump, he might view those who did do so as being ignorant of events beyond the borders of Boro Park.

Which is a silly opinon, because most Boro Parkers who voted for Trump know that the outside world is made up of basically Israel and Iran. Oh and also France where there are TONS of Muslims Hashem Yerachem, those antisemites.

Seriously speaking, he was giving sound byte over the phone, and it may have been misquoted. Even if he did say precisely those words, he meant it in a politically biased way, which sounds odd when taken out of context.

As a card-carrying liberal chassidic woman, it's not hard for me to understand how people reconcile personal beliefs and political outlook.

Fox

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:51 pm

tigerwife wrote:

How insular do you really think Boro Park is?

Not nearly as insular as the world inhabited by Ms. Piser, the author of the piece.

A better journalist might have examined Boro Park as an example of how "politics is downstream from culture," but that would require having actually read something by Andrew Breitbart, a"h.

Another good analysis might have referenced David French's recent piece in The National Review on how the media doesn't get religion. But somehow I doubt Ms. Poser spends much time reading David French.

So instead she calls up the one Chassidic person in her contacts and together they ponder how Chassidic people can be so stupid as to disagree with them. I mean, obviously they know what's best -- why are those people in BP so stubborn?!

youngishbear

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:57 pm

Fox wrote:

"Nevertheless, Samuel Heilman, a sociologist at Queens College who focuses on contemporary Jewish Orthodox movements, warned against overstating the role Israel plays. “The community is politically conservative because it’s socially conservative,” he said by phone. “They believe that the ring wing speaks to their values.”

Heilman cited Trump’s support for school vouchers, which would essentially provide public funding for Hasidic children to attend yeshivas, as a strong selling point.

For Heilman, the community’s apparent acceptance of Trump’s s-xual attitudes extends from the notion that the secular world is highly sexualized—that non-Jews are necessarily deviant and that Trump is simply a product of that world.

Members of such a close-knit, values-driven community are also less likely than their secular counterparts to see politicians as potential role models; as members of the secular world, their values are already inferior.

“The person running for office or in office is not someone that I would hope for my children to aspire to or to follow in his or her footsteps,” said Friedlander. Moreover, he said, the explicit nature of Trump’s comments about women were not reported in the Hasidic press. “They weren’t part of the daily conversation.”

Many Hasidic Jews see Democrats as worse, according to Friedlander. “A movement that wants to delegitimize a family from worshipping, or delegitimize traditional marriage,” he said, explaining their view. “They see something very sinister.”

Their lack of access to—or interest in—mainstream media also leaves them open to many false notions propagated elsewhere. “We know that Hillary is a murderer—at least by proxy,” Horowitz told me. “She’s a thief and a liar.”

Finally, while many immigrant communities in the United States seek to integrate and gain equal rights, Hasidic Jews don’t aspire to become American. A sentiment of superiority learned from youth precludes any notion of solidarity with other minority groups. Instead, they are often subject to the Hasidic community’s own prejudices, Heilman said.

“They live in a fortress, in ghettos of their own making,” he explained, “not ones they’ve been put into by others.”"

I have heard and seen the bolded to be true.

Last edited by youngishbear on Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

cornflower

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:58 pm

tigerwife wrote:

How insular do you really think Boro Park is?

Obviously no one frisks you for books as you cross 60th Street (or wherever the boundary is). But if you get your news from kosher sources and live and work exclusively with people in your narrow demographic, you're naturally in a certain echo chamber. Just like some liberals in their own world. They can also be intolerant and judgemental. The biggest (related) differences are that it's easier to leave the liberal community, and also, following the party line isn't expressed as religious obligation.

amother

Royalblue

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 10:26 pm

This is all nice and true in theory except that it doesn't take into account that the concept of an "insular community" is fast becoming a thing of the past.

How insular can a community be in the age of the internet?

And while it's true as the article posits, that ultra orthodox Jews have never looked at political leaders as role models, the frum world has been more "involved" in the 2016 presidential election than any in recent history. We are more connected with the outside world now than ever.

Perhaps many in bp do not have any access to the internet.

But many do.

So how insular can it really be?

MagentaYenta

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 10:39 pm

amother wrote:

It really depends. Is the internet filtered? Do these individuals openly explore the information available? Or is the access limited to those sites you agree with? And is this use of the internet sub rosa?

I'm not a part of the community, I can only ask questions.

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Jan 15 2017, 5:11 am

I grew up in Boro Park, and I completely agree.

"How would this be a downside, in the eyes of a Chassidic person?"

There are many chassidish people who have a tough dilemma; they embrace their culture but long for more education and more exposure... They grew up with way more leeway. I grew up with more leeway, my family watched all the classic movies, we read many clean secular books, we had friends from other communities, the schools had a lot less rules... My block had litvish, modern orthodox, secular, sefardi, chassidish and heimish families. Now most of the people who aren't chassidish have moved away, and chassidish culture itself has gotten so much more confining.

There are people who are chassidish - shtreimel, beketche, tish, etc. send their kids to chassidish schools, and yet think that the extreme insularity is negative, not positive, and that the increased restrictions and fear mongering of the outside world is stifling. There are many different stripes of chassidish.

As to saying, well they can move to a different community - it's not so simple for a chassidish family. Community is a big part of their culture, and other chassidish enclaves are the same in this regard. It is a major, major decision that not everyone can make.