"Part of the downside of living in a vibrant Jewish..."

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 8:14 am

Fox, I meant "iconoclast" and having a "public position in the community" sincerely as compliments, and I am glad you are taking it that way. It's clear from many of your posts that you are an iconoclast, from your willingness to bash luxury-creep in various sects of the Orthodox community, to your insistence on not sending your daughters away to Israel for a gap year. I gathered that you have a public position in your community from your remarks about your husband being a rabbi / teacher (Am I correct about this? I don't always keep internet personalities' spouses clear), and the fact that you mentioned (iirc) that you had discussed the gap-year issue with high school principals and other leaders in the community. Generally you don't get traction on that front unless you have a public position in the community.

But your cat-meme argument does not pass muster. Posting a link to an article is very different than posting a cat meme. As I'm sure you know very well, when you post a cat meme, you're saying that you think it's cute or funny, or that you think others will find it cute or funny; you are not saying that you think you are a cat. When you post a link to an article, the default understanding is that you agree with much of what the article says, unless you explicitly say otherwise.

That said, I am in total agreement with you that the term "working class" has lost much of its meaning today. Nevertheless, it's just plain silly to state, as the frontpagemag article did, that "scrappy" people like David Friedman have a lot in common with people in Rust Belt states. David Friedman is no less an elite than the talking heads in Commentary and Slate and the Washington Post. If anything, he adds a good deal less value to society. He's a bankruptcy lawyer for DJT, which means he works to maximize the money that DJT can take out of a failed enterprise and minimize the amount of money that is paid to the creditors who deserve the money. This is a contribution to society? In contrast, freedom of the press is a fundamental right in our society, and a prerequisite to the preservation of democracy, and investigative journalism and commentary are fundamental parts of a working free press.I'm not saying that the press did a great job during the last few years, but they did more for the country than a bunch of bankruptcy lawyers for the very rich. (What does that word "scrappy" mean anyway? That Friedman is rude? That he calls people "kapos" if they support policies of the minority part in Israel (Labor)?)

What I do find insulting is your remark

Quote:

Actually, Fox, I, along with many of my liberal Orthodox friends, believe in the Torah just as much as you do. It is entirely consistent with my belief in the Torah to defend the values in the Torah, and to reject someone who lies more often than he speaks the truth, who promises things with no intention of getting them done, who stiff his workers (a clear, clear violation of Torah law), who has confessed to assaulting women, and who, along with his father, denied people housing because of their skin color and religion, in direct opposition to government law. Personally, I have been shocked that annoyance with what you consider to be uber political correctness led you to vote for someone who has violated so many of the Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach.

Please don't pretend that it's believing in the Torah that separates DJT supporters from DJT opponents / resisters.

youngishbear

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 8:48 am

Fox, I stand with joyinthemorning in saying most liberal orthodox Jews I know (and we are few in number in my circles) believe in the Torah just as much.

(I can understand those who voted for Trump despute his personal lapses because hey, he ain't running for pope *.... I didn't get why those same people villainized Clinton for lesser sins. But that's neither here nor there at this point.)

I found the sociologists observations consistent with my own in my conversations with people. The article you linked did not resonate at all. I know that just because I personally don't know anyone who has expressed those views doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm just saying it struck me as out of touch with the people I know.

Which basically proves that there are no simple answers, and too many individual viewpoints within demographics to generalize to this extent.

*This attitude does show a level of disregard towards the office of president, which is consistent with the sociologist's observation that we don't consider politicians role models for our children.

Fox

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:26 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Actually, Fox, I, along with many of my liberal Orthodox friends, believe in the Torah just as much as you do.

youngishbear wrote:

Fox, I stand with joyinthemorning in saying most liberal orthodox Jews I know (and we are few in number in my circles) believe in the Torah just as much.

Is this some kind of MO self-loathing thing?

Because I am not the one distinguishing amongst various streams of observant Judaism -- you are. I am distinguishing between Orthodox Jews -- who by definition all believe in the Torah -- and secular Jews, who by Piser's account as well as others, identify overwhelmingly as politically liberal.

Fox wrote:

The reason the Forward, et. al., are shocked that Orthodox Jews would break ranks politically with liberal Jews is because they just can't get their heads around the fact that we really believe in the Torah. Whether you felt Trump or Clinton best represented your interests, it is inconceivable to Piser and the Forward that many of us feel we have more in common politically with a Southern Baptist in Arkansas than a completely secular Jew living on the Upper East Side.

Or must all MO Jews must identify as politically liberal while all RW Jews must identify as politically conservative? Will we, like Peter Thiel, get our identity cards yanked if we don't toe the line?

The late columnist A. M. Rosenthal wrote a number of columns in the early 90s in response to the Crown Heights pogrom. One particular line directed at secular Jews, I believe, should be prominently displayed somewhere in every shul, school, and pizza shop as a reminder regarding our internecine squabbles:

Quote:

Sweethearts, by you, you are Park Avenue, by your wife you are Park Avenue, but by an anti-Semite you are a Hasid.

We may see various paths within the observant Torah world as significantly different. But to the average non-religious journalist -- Jewish or not -- we pretty much look the same.

Dean Baquet, an executive editor at the NY Times described it this way in an interview on NPR's Fresh Air:

Quote:

I think that the New York–based, and Washington-based too, probably, media powerhouses don’t quite get religion. We have a fabulous religion writer, but she’s all alone. We don’t get religion. We don’t get the role of religion in people’s lives.

In other words, journalists simply can't believe the degree to which observant Jews of all stripes are motivated by our religious beliefs. Even when we reach radically different conclusions from one another, they can't imagine that our religious beliefs had a discernible effect in the process. It's gotta be Israel, insularity, etc.

Of course, we're not alone. The same journalists don't accept that jihadis really believe that they should kill infidels. It's gotta be economics, oppression, lack of education, etc.

Piser could have written several excellent articles: Why did a majority of Chassidim vote for Trump despite endorsements of Clinton by major Rebbes as well as other public figures in the frum world? Was the frum vote driven by dislike of Clinton or support of Trump? Is anti-Semitism in Europe making frum Jews in America more open to nationalist ideas?

But consistent with Baquet's admission of "not getting it," she wrote a simplistic piece that could have been titled, "Jews in South Brooklyn Who Dress Funny Voted Wrong -- What Gives?"

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:40 am

But Fox, your post implied that people who believe in the Torah have more in common with a Southern Baptist from Arkansas than a secular Jew from the Upper East Side. And that's not true. I have much more in common with the secular Jew from the Upper East Side (all right, all right, I wish you had said Upper West Side) than with the Southern Baptist from Arkansas.

I think I have almost nothing in common with the Southern Baptist from Arkansas. I don't believe in Jesus. I don't support the death penalty. I am pro-choice for many reasons, one of which is that I believe it gives more protection for Jews to observe Halacha (which has a much more liberal reading of "life threatening" than an Arkansas legislature would probably have). I am not a fundamentalist; I believe that the world is much older than 5.7 K years, and that evolution is consistent with the Torah. I believe in affirmative action. I believe in universal health care. I believe that taxes are a good and legitimate way for government to achieve social goals.

In all these ways, I am much more like the entirely secular New York Jew. Not only that, but when I meet up with him/her, we can discuss the latest exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and theater, books, and architecture.

And (yet/ this is a consequence of the fact that) I am a Jew who believes in and observes the Torah.

Fox

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 1:16 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

First of all, read what I actually wrote: I said "many of us" have more in common with a Southern Baptist from Arkansas . . . So if that doesn't apply to you, all well and good.

However, it obviously applies to many frum Jews. The areas of commonality are not religious beliefs and not necessarily even government and policy issues. Rather, they are underlying core values: strong familes; respect for religion; the importance of charity and community involvement; personal respect for others; respect for elders, etc.

People can disagree on the goals of government or the best way to reach those goals without disagreeing on what fundamental characteristics make for a strong, healthy community.

But your characterization of our imaginary Arkansas Southern Baptist is a perfect illustration of what elected Trump and what could potentially re-elect him no matter how loathesome a president he turns out to be.

Southern Baptists in Arkansas are no more monolithic in their beliefs than frum Jews. Believe it or not, many of them have nuanced, carefully-considered views and beliefs -- just as you do. And, yes, plenty of them can discuss art, theatre, books, and architecture. Of course, they also enjoy discussing how provincial "coastal elites" tend to depict them all as uneducated, Bible-thumping yahoos.

I just started reading Joel Pollak's new book (the one that didn't get a $250K advance), so I'm eager to read his take on this topic. However, a consistent theme among political strategists starting in 2015 has been that people do not vote based on policy; they vote based on values. So despite your personal experiences, I believe that many frum Jews do feel they are more respected on a personal level by people of faith -- even if the faith is different from their own.

Fox

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 6:03 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

You know something? I would hope that while if you're going down some checklist I might appear to have more in common with an Arkansas Baptist I would always have more in common with any Jew, any where.

Okay -- obviously at some level this is hopefully true.

In my practical experience, though, it doesn't always work that way.

For example, I've had several jobs where I worked on accreditation and approval processes for post-secondary Orthodox Jewish schools or programs. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Jews in the academic and educational regulatory worlds are not sympathetic and many, in fact, are openly hostile to the concerns of Orthodox Jewish institutions and students.

I learned to play the game: try to get the Jesuit priest or provost of an Evangelical Christian college to serve on the evaluation team. If you tell them you do XYZ for religious reasons, they are respectful and leave it alone. But you never knew what you'd get from a secular Jewish academic. He/she might be perfectly appropriate, or you might get thrown under the bus because you didn't offer Talmud to girls or you were trying to make kosher food available or whatever bee happened to inhabit the evaluator's bonnet with regard to Orthodox Jews.

I've also given professional presentations that secular Jewish women refused to attend because they didn't want to "condone" the sexist system that I represented. The irony was that I was usually presenting something technologically-related and oftentimes the boycotting women were in "pink collar" support roles. I guess refusing to learn how computers operate was somehow a blow against the patriarchy.

So while I'm sure all of you know tons of perfectly lovely secular Jews who don't harbor a single prejudice or misconception about Orthodox life and are always respectful and appropriate, that has not been my experience. The most egregious, up-close-and-personal acts of anti-Semitism I've experienced -- as well as tons of "microagressions" -- have been perpetrated by secular Jews responding to the existence of Orthodox Jews.

sequoia

Tue, Jan 17 2017, 6:22 pm

You're missing the point. Family doesn't mean we all like each other or all agree; it means we have an indescribable bond, the proverbial pintele yid, the reason for the existence of "Jewdar."

Think of a shtetl, or even a lively street in Odessa. Esfir Solomonovna and Roza Moiseevna might hate each other's guts. They may backstab, insult, bicker, even betray. They may be in an endless rivalry over who has the nicest chandelier, the most expensive fur, or the most successful husband. But in case of any aggression by non-Jews, they -- and everyone in the neighborhood -- would have each other's backs. They would use all their Jewish wit to protect each other.

And, throughout most of history, and today in many countries, the differences among Jews were tiny and trivial compared to the differences between Jews and the rest of the local population. Whether it was the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, or North Africa, Jews always stood out and always recognized each other, regardless of their level of observance.

It's the thing that inexorably pulled Mowgli to humans after he'd been raised by animals. The inner essence, the voice that cannot be silenced. The voice of family.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 8:46 am

sequoia wrote:

Wow. Thank YOU!
In typical traditional fashion, on the one hand, I hear Fox. OTOH, Sequoia said it perfectly.
And yet on another hand...
But there is no other hand Tongue Out

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 9:10 am

Fox, of course if we begin looking at specific issues we have more in common with Christian groups than secular Jews. Education is the prime example, as kashrus or bris milah issues could have us forming alliances with Muslim groups.

I am not going to start looking for specific examples where the opposite is true, and they be more theoretical than practical, but the point of politics is that we often build unlikely alliances for specific causes. I agree that many liberals do not understand religion, and I even agree that that article could have had more depth. However, I did not find the one you linked any more insightful.

The pivot towards Republican support may be partly religously inspired but the Trump movement was hardly so, at least not in my circles. Additionally, the people I know who supported Trump have little in common ideologically with the rest of Trump's base, besides for their lack of college education.

Fox

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 11:53 am

This thread seems to have devolved into picking apart my posts and examples rather than discussing anything substantive. I'm certainly not claiming that any of my examples or theses are above reproach -- just that we've wandered rather far from the OP's question or the discussion of the particular article.

The OP cited a particular article.

I found the article to be puerile, lazy, and condescending. Some of you found it to be thought-provoking journalism.

That's okay. We can disagree. I suspect the Forward isn't exactly thinking of me when they target their audience.

But here's what does frustrate me:

I'm not pulling this stuff out of a hat. I try to read as much as possible, listen to podcasts, and follow various websites. In this thread alone, I've cited at least 3 or 4 specific articles, books, and writers that attempt to analyze political behavior and motivation.

So far, no one has responded at all except to say simply that she "disagreed" with the thesis of an article or felt it didn't accurately reflect the people she knew. Well, frankly, that's the old Pauline Kael, a"h, argument: How could Nixon have won when I didn't know anyone who voted for him? It may true, but it doesn't really prove anything.

But it begs a different question: who and what is forming your opinions about political behavior? Who are you reading and what are they saying? Who are your go-to sources for political analysis and why?

Since you reject Samuel Heilman's thesis that "The community is politically conservative because it’s socially conservative. They believe that the ring wing speaks to their values,” then what is it you believe is at work and why do you believe it?

33055

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 12:18 pm

sequoia wrote:

I agree with Fox. When the Nazi were coming for the poor Jews, the wealthier Jews didn't think the Nazi-sponsered legislation would effect them because they looked and acted like Germans. They are others.

All this stuff family stuff is not taught in my circles. There is no respect and inclusion in thoughts for the way non-frum/non-tznius Jews practice. They are others. There is more respect for a Southern Baptist then a secular Jew.

Non-frum Jews are a pity. It is worse to look like g°y when you are a yid then to be a tznius g°y who respects herself and her religion. A good chunk of the amothers on this site would not be respected. Certainly they would not eat in their kitchens, not allow their children to associate with their children.

I have a close friend who is a born again Christian. She is considered along the lines of a true separate but equal. Her religious beliefs are respected. She is modest and pious. MOs don't have the same respect.

I want to be clear that these are not my beliefs. I am more tolerant.

ora_43

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 12:24 pm

Fox wrote:

I found the article to be puerile, lazy, and condescending. Some of you found it to be thought-provoking journalism.

I'm with you.

What I disliked most was the tone of, like, how stupid do these Jews have to be to vote for the guy with anti-Semites on his side. 1. Patronizing 2. SO SO SO lacking awareness of the existence of left-wing anti-Semitism / appeasing of anti-Semites.

The author kind of pays lip service to it, but in a way that makes it sound idiotic (like, silly ultra-orthodox Jews in their little bubbles, they think anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite). The whole thing was just... ugh.

I guess it's good news for Trump fans. The more the left keeps telling itself that the reason Trump won is that "those voters" are bigoted cretins, the more likely Trump is to win a second term.

Me, I'm not a big fan of Trump, so I'd rather see the left wake up some time in the near future. We can hope.

Fox

Wed, Jan 18 2017, 12:39 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Me, I'm not a big fan of Trump, so I'd rather see the left wake up some time in the near future. We can hope.

This, 100 percent!

Conservative Twitter/Gab has been very interesting lately. Even the most hard-core Trump supporters acknowledge the need for a "loyal opposition" and an effective press. Whether you want to make sure the Trump administration is held to its promises or prevented from fulfilling them, the antidote is the same.

A number of conservative pundits say, in various ways, "We keep telling you how to beat us, but you just won't listen!" Before the election, it was said as a joke. As the weeks have rolled by, the left has continued to implode and the NeverTrumpers are scurrying to salvage their jobs or their relevance. In my imagination, I envision Ben Shapiro and Dave Rubin poking at the comatose body of the left, desperately trying to prod it for signs of life.