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The Immigration Conundrum
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 4:50 am
13yo DD is becoming very politically aware these days. She may not be in school, but she's keeping on top of social studies!

Today she asked me about the "Muslim Ban".

I told her, what if there were 100 people in a country, where you were sure that they were going to die if they stayed there - but there was a good chance that one of those 100 was a secret terrorist? Is it worth the risk?

What if you let those 100 people in, and one actually was a terrorist. The terrorist goes on and stages an attack. You've let in 99 people and saved their lives, but the terrorist killed 100 people in the attack. Was it worth it?

What if the terrorist killed 200 people?

What if some of the people killed were your friends or family? Still worth it?

Think again of the 99 innocent lives you've saved, on the chance that none of them would be terrorists. Think of the repercussions. It's the Devil's Arithmetic, in a nutshell.

I have no answers.
There are no easy answers. I'm glad that I'm not in the position to have to make those kinds of choices, and literally decide who lives and who dies. All I can do, is daven to Hashem to guide the hearts and minds of our leaders, and pray for the safety of the innocent, no matter where they come from.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 5:47 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
13yo DD is becoming very politically aware these days. She may not be in school, but she's keeping on top of social studies!

Today she asked me about the "Muslim Ban".

I told her, what if there were 100 people in a country, where you were sure that they were going to die if they stayed there - but there was a good chance that one of those 100 was a secret terrorist? Is it worth the risk?

What if you let those 100 people in, and one actually was a terrorist. The terrorist goes on and stages an attack. You've let in 99 people and saved their lives, but the terrorist killed 100 people in the attack. Was it worth it?

What if the terrorist killed 200 people?

What if some of the people killed were your friends or family? Still worth it?

Think again of the 99 innocent lives you've saved, on the chance that none of them would be terrorists. Think of the repercussions. It's the Devil's Arithmetic, in a nutshell.

I have no answers.
There are no easy answers. I'm glad that I'm not in the position to have to make those kinds of choices, and literally decide who lives and who dies. All I can do, is daven to Hashem to guide the hearts and minds of our leaders, and pray for the safety of the innocent, no matter where they come from.


You literally expressed my thoughts exactly. My heart breaks for the innocent refugees but there are no easy answers...
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 5:55 am
It gets even more complicated. What if you break up families, take away the main breadwinner, and only allow women and children?

http://www.jewishpress.com/new.....1/16/
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/new.....urope

Courtesy of a two second Google search.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:19 am
Do you think it is fair to change the rules in the middle, FF? Like this family. https://www.washingtonpost.com.....4f536

Imagine if 2 days before you were supposed to make aliya the israeli embassy called up and said you would not be allowed to make aliya indefinitely until some unspecified red tape was sorted. Meanwhile you have sold your house or given up the lease, paid a deposit on a property in Israel, etc. How would you feel?

All because of some vague safety issue. Meanwhile any american can walk into a shop and buy an automatic gun that can kill dozens quickly. I guess the Republicans really care about people's safety. Rolling Eyes

Terrorists are just as likely to be: born in america (the orlando shooter), from another muslim country (the boston bombers, 9/11 attackers) or even from a non muslim country. So I fail to see how this is making anyone safer. If anything it will cause anger among muslims.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:20 am
And what if of those 99 refugees, 43 are economic refugees and pretending to be refugees from war? And what if 35 (some of them actual refugees) hurt our women and children because they haven't been socialized to western culture and have no desire to do so? What if they feel the right to relieve themselves when they are s€xually frustrated? What if when we let in children, they are really grown men and we stick them in schools with vulnerable children years younger ? What about all the other billions we can't help? What if we let in a million and then we acknowledge we made a mistake?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:30 am
Raisin I like your post, but I think there's a difference between this specific ban and immigration in general.

This specific travel ban was confusing and poorly implemented, and has caused a lot of unnecessary suffering.

In general - I think it's clear that on the one hand, countries can't open their doors to the world at large without inviting instability (if America allowed anyone who wanted to immigrate to do so, next week the population of the US would be like 1 billion... ). And on the other hand, for stable countries to close their doors to refugees would be heartless.

Like FF said, it's complicated.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:31 am
Squishy wrote:
And what if of those 99 refugees, 43 are economic refugees and pretending to be refugees from war? And what if 35 (some of them actual refugees) hurt our women and children because they haven't been socialized to western culture and have no desire to do so? What if they feel the right to relieve themselves when they are s€xually frustrated? What if when we let in children, they are really grown men and we stick them in schools with vulnerable children years younger ? What about all the other billions we can't help? What if we let in a million and then we acknowledge we made a mistake?


This is exactly what's happening all over Europe, especially in ultra- liberal Sweden (but they would never admit they made a mistake).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:35 am
Squishy wrote:
And what if of those 99 refugees, 43 are economic refugees and pretending to be refugees from war? And what if 35 (some of them actual refugees) hurt our women and children because they haven't been socialized to western culture and have no desire to do so? What if they feel the right to relieve themselves when they are s€xually frustrated? What if when we let in children, they are really grown men and we stick them in schools with vulnerable children years younger ? What about all the other billions we can't help? What if we let in a million and then we acknowledge we made a mistake?

What if those 99 are kind, hardworking people who contribute to making the country a better place to be? What if they bring their positive cultural values with them?

Immigration isn't just something stable Western democracies give as a gift. Immigration keeps societies healthy.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:36 am
ora_43 wrote:
Raisin I like your post, but I think there's a difference between this specific ban and immigration in general.

This specific travel ban was confusing and poorly implemented, and has caused a lot of unnecessary suffering.

In general - I think it's clear that on the one hand, countries can't open their doors to the world at large without inviting instability (if America allowed anyone who wanted to immigrate to do so, next week the population of the US would be like 1 billion... ). And on the other hand, for stable countries to close their doors to refugees would be heartless.

Like FF said, it's complicated.


Exactly. This ban is changing the rules in the middle. You can't just implement a new immigration rule that applies to people who already have visas and are even mid flight.

Of course, the United States is allowed to make whatever arbitary ridiculous rules on who can immigrate (not that I believe it will make them safer) but implement them in a normal way. Immigration rules were already very tight before.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:37 am
moonstone wrote:
This is exactly what's happening all over Europe, especially in ultra- liberal Sweden (but they would never admit they made a mistake).


Merkel and her close supporter have admitted they made mistakes.

Now they are seeking to cut the stipends.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:54 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new......html

Only Anon as I discussed this IRL.

1200 German women assaulted on New Years Eve, mostly refugees at fault...
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 6:57 am
ora_43 wrote:
What if those 99 are kind, hardworking people who contribute to making the country a better place to be? What if they bring their positive cultural values with them?

Immigration isn't just something stable Western democracies give as a gift. Immigration keeps societies healthy.


And many aging European economies desperately needed the economic shot in the arm that immigration provides. There were good reasons, aside from humanitarian considerations to encourage immigration. Unfortunately the cultural values that many of the immigrants bought with them has proven to be inimical to or at very least incompatible with those of their host societies.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:03 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
13yo DD is becoming very politically aware these days. She may not be in school, but she's keeping on top of social studies!

Today she asked me about the "Muslim Ban".

I told her, what if there were 100 people in a country, where you were sure that they were going to die if they stayed there - but there was a good chance that one of those 100 was a secret terrorist? Is it worth the risk?

What if you let those 100 people in, and one actually was a terrorist. The terrorist goes on and stages an attack. You've let in 99 people and saved their lives, but the terrorist killed 100 people in the attack. Was it worth it?

What if the terrorist killed 200 people?

What if some of the people killed were your friends or family? Still worth it?

Think again of the 99 innocent lives you've saved, on the chance that none of them would be terrorists. Think of the repercussions. It's the Devil's Arithmetic, in a nutshell.

I have no answers.
There are no easy answers. I'm glad that I'm not in the position to have to make those kinds of choices, and literally decide who lives and who dies. All I can do, is daven to Hashem to guide the hearts and minds of our leaders, and pray for the safety of the innocent, no matter where they come from.


Very well put.

I mentioned in another thread that Trump is trying to build support for creation of a safe passage for Syrian refugees, guarded by the international community.

As of yesterday, he got Saudi Arabia to jump on board. Curious if his plan is to send US troops.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:08 am
amother wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3684302/1-200-German-women-s-xually-assaulted-New-Year-s-Eve-Cologne-elsewhere.html

Only Anon as I discussed this IRL.

1200 German women assaulted on New Years Eve, mostly refugees at fault...


I also discussed this IRL.

No wonder tourism is down. Why does anyone want this in the US?

I also like that DT is going to publish the weekly statistics of illegal immigrant crime in the US. We need to make informed decisions rather than listen to the pap from the media.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:50 am
moonstone wrote:
especially in ultra- liberal Sweden (but they would never admit they made a mistake).


DD really wants to go visit her BFF, who lives in Sweden, on the outskirts of Malmo. I'd love her to go and travel, see her friend, and experience Swedish culture, but I'd be lying if I said I felt comfortable with it.

DD has waist length blonde hair, and so does her friend. Blondes are favorite targets with immigrants who want to show what they think of Western women.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/06.....tion/
http://www.breitbart.com/londo.....almo/
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.....-rape
The last thing I want, is to end up seeing her on FaceBook.
http://www.infowars.com/sweden.....live/

Interestingly, when I did a Google search for sources, I set it for "News", so I would filter out all of the blog chatter. I tried to find non biased sources, but everything I found was from conservative or independent sources. Liberal sites seem to hardly be covering this at all!

My fear is that America will become the next Sweden, based on the common values of inclusion, tolerance, diversity, open borders - and looking the other way when facts don't fit the agenda.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:50 am
ora_43 wrote:
What if those 99 are kind, hardworking people who contribute to making the country a better place to be? What if they bring their positive cultural values with them?

Immigration isn't just something stable Western democracies give as a gift. Immigration keeps societies healthy.


So you are ok with 99 being good and one being a terrorist? shock
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:53 am
I think the single biggest misconception is that radicalism in the Muslim world is a tiny minority phenomenon. I don't think the people on the left who want to have a relaxed immigration policy would feel that way if they believed that the radicals extended beyond just a small minority. They don't believe that the Muslim world is vastly different than our world in a meaningful ad dangerous way. They think that the ideology that woman should be imprisoned for not wearing a veil, adulterers should be stoned, apostates should be killed and many other horrific ideologies that directly conflict with American values only applies to a minute fraction of Muslims living in Muslim majority countries. They don't realize that in many Muslim majority countries, it's often 20% or higher. So if I would ask the question: Do you believe the America should take tens of thousands of refuges from Muslim majority countries in which:

25% believe that violence is justified when defending Islam.
25% believe adulterers should be stoned.
25% have positive or mixed felling about Bin Laden
25% believe in honor killings
50% believe that the Unites States or Israel were behind 9-11
Hamas enjoys close to a 60% approval rating in Egypt and Jordan. Do we really need those people coming here? I'm curious if we define the debate along these terms if it changes anything.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:54 am
Squishy wrote:
So you are ok with 99 being good and one being a terrorist? shock


And what about the 100 people who get blown up? Hard working, tax paying people, every one of them.

What if the 100 Americans who die are lazy, on welfare, or stupid? Does that make it OK?

Would it be easier if the terrorist only killed 5 people? How would you explain your decision to the families of the victims? Do you think the victim's families would agree with you?
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:59 am
You can explain to your daughter that there are boundaries that people and countries have that other people are expected to respect and comply with.

For example, say that someone wants to come to your house but you know that person is a s-x offender who has abused some girls in the past. Would you put your daughter at risk and invite this person to your house?

Another example of a boundary that you incorporate in your house is putting a lock on the door. Would you be okay with someone breaking in and taking all your belongings? Would you be okay with someone breaking in and making themselves at home without your permission? What if the person breaking in has the intent to hurt your daughter, would you not defend yourself and call the cops to arrest him for violating your boundaries?

You are the parent of a child so you try to protect her from harm by not just letting anyone into your house and by"vetting" them to ensure that they will not harm you or your family.

The same could be said for President Trump. He is the "parent" of this country and he has a duty to protect his "family" (aka American citizens) from harm. He is trying to put a lock on the door and figure out how to better vet people so they should not cause harm to his "children". That is what any good parent would do and President Trump is doing a good job to fulfill his duty of protecting American citizens.

You can also read the full text of Trumps executive order with your daughter so that she can see for herself that Trump actually does have a good plan to try to protect American citizens, it is not discrimination, and it is not exactly how the media portrays it either. You can have your daughter compare the executive order that Trump actually signed to what the media is saying, that will actually be a good lesson for her never to trust the media again Smile

Full text of the executive action Trump signed-- http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01.....gees/
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2017, 8:04 am
Squishy wrote:
So you are ok with 99 being good and one being a terrorist? shock



In which Muslim majority country do 99% of it's people believe that violence isn't justified when defending Islam? Check google and find a single one. Your statement directly hits on why this debate is off target. The debate is whether we should allow immigrants from countries like Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and several others, whose dangerous ideologies about woman, violence, terror attacks hover above 20%. I realize we are on the same side, but it's not 1%.
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