Comparing our generation to previous ones

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Roots

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 2:17 pm

here in israel alot of people use kosher phones and the rabboni, are really trying to ban smartphones. there are 'kosher' smartphones with email and watsapp for businessmen and I know that chabad also has some sort of filter.
BH we also have only kosher phones and we got used to it - im the only one in my family and im the only one not on watsapp ans thats really hard but I think im also a real mother to my children, unlike my busy busy mother and siblings who always need to check their phones.
but then again I live in israel and they dont, in chutz laarets its much harder...

Roots

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

How do we make sure that we don't do the same thing? Most of us feel confident in our levels because we know so many others who are there too. This way of thinking didn't save the people in mitzrayim. they had plenty of friends behaving just like them and they all died. I want to be strong enough to stand up to our generations' challenges but it's hard to go against social norms. our gedolim tell us things, for example to get rid of the Internet and smart phones, but we don't listen. all our friends have it too so it can't be so bad, right?

the answer is as you said: listen to the gedolim, the poskei hador and just try to do it.
at least partially and try to go forward from there.
get an internet filter, get the children kosher phones and let it start from there and then build up if you cant change right away.
its hard but its the only way . we cant decide for ourselves, how much do we know already?
we trust the gedolim

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 2:25 pm

Roots wrote:

Can't disagree, but feel a need to emphasize aseh lecha rav. Find out what local rabbanim recommend. Get their hashkafos on technology. Ask for eitzas.

BayMom

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 6:20 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

This is nothing new. Plenty of kids Orthodox kids attended public schools in the 50s and 60s for this exact reason.

And you would agree that the public school culture was way better morally in the 50's and 60's...

amother

Green

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 6:42 pm

amother wrote:

I don't understand how Yoatzot fit into this list. Do you think it's negative???

Women wearing red - I'm sure my grandmothers wore red too. They also wore short sleeves and above the knee dresses.

Long sheitels - yes, this is true, and yet, I think our generation has more people covering hair than the past few.

I don't think any of it is necessarily negative. I was just pointing out that smartphones are not the only thing that is controversial and has changed in recent years.

And I'd add- if you are truly acting leshaim shamayim you can't go wrong (I hope)

zaq

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 7:00 pm

amother wrote:

This isn't really a reflection on changing values so much as a result of policy decisions made over the last several decades that affected municipal planning, public transportation, and car ownership. 99% of America is built to be heavily reliant on cars for various complicated reasons. That so many families have 2 cars today is not because we're a spoiled generation but because in most parts of the country it is a NEED.

and in a few more years, a smartphone will have become a need as well. When is the last time you saw an honest to goodness paper road map for sale? Hagstrom, that source of meticulously detailed maps that people who traveled for a living depended on, stopped printing them several years ago.

But my point was not that people eventually need things that are initially objected to. It's that conservatives initially object to everything new simply because it is new. I am sure that when the automobile became available to ordinary mortals, religious leaders inveighed against them because they would make it easy for people to go to places of temptation and sin, to say nothing of sinning in the automobiles themselves. Do we not have certain communities that bar women and unmarried males from driving for these very reasons?

zaq

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 7:04 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Your job is to look only at yourself and assess yourself. Take a look at your challenges, your personality, your hardships, your privileges and be the best person you can be. That is your tafkid.

Exactly.
As Rabbi Zusha of Anipoli said, "I'm not worried that after 120 the Master of the Universe will ask me, Zusha, why weren't you Moshe Rabbenu? I'm worried that He will ask me, Why weren't you Zusha?!"

amother

Jade

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 4:24 am

amother wrote:

I don't think any of it is necessarily negative. I was just pointing out that smartphones are not the only thing that is controversial and has changed in recent years.

Your list may be true but what on it has become almost the norm in frum communities across the board like smartphones? Except maybe long sheitels

eschaya

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 9:09 am

A smartphone, like all other technology (and really nearly everything in this world), is just a tool, albeit a powerful one. Banning or denouncing smartphones is like banning electricity. Of course electricity is dangerous. But you'd be a fool to avoid electricity just because of the danger; instead we make sure to use it in safe and controlled ways. This is how we should approach all new technology that harbors both incredible dangers but also incredible uses and opportunities. Approach with caution, use as necessary and don't play around with it. I have a smartphone, and I must admit that I have facebook on it which is probably - just for its addictive tendencies - as close to the danger line as I get. But otherwise, I have uptodate (an incredible medical app that I use for work), an exercise tracker, a flashlight, a camera, a phone, an alarm clock, a photoalbum, a relaxing-sound machine, an expense tracker, a calculator and a GPS all in one. How incredible is that!?! I need to set limits for myself, such as not using it when I'm around my kids, and I have to admit that I sometimes stumble, but isn't that what life is about? Of course, anyone who knows they have an addictive personality needs to be even extra careful, and this may include not owning a smartphone. But to consider a tool the nisayon of our generation? I think thats giving way too much power to a tool instead of looking at ourselves.
my father is technologically saavy and has always been very current about new technology. So of course our house had internet at its very beginning (before it even became something to avoid in our communities). One shabbos day, during the seuda, my younger sister (maybe 7 at the time) mentioned something about "the internet" to the astonishment of our guests. One guest asked my sister, "wow, what is the internet?" and she looked at him like he was dumb and said "it's how you look at shiurim on the computer"! In the home I grew up in, new technology was exciting for the wonderful opportunities it afforded us, such the ability for my father to continue learning with his long-time chavrusa who had moved to E'Y, or to listen to a wide variety of shiurim online (and audit many univerity lectures, do geneology research, access information, make connections, etc). Again, technology is a tool. Perhaps our generation's nisayon is to learn to use tools safely and appropriately, not to avoid altogether.
Anyway, this is a tangent. I think the OP had a good point, though we probably could use a navi to tell us exactly what our generations test is and what we need to do to pass that test.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 11:04 am

eschaya wrote:

such the ability for my father to continue learning with his long-time chavrusa who had moved to E'Y,

my father does that. on a regular phone. every single day.

cbsp

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 11:41 am

amother wrote:

my father does that. on a regular phone. every single day.

I "liked" your post.

However, I do want to point out that the telephone rates have dropped considerably in part due to the Internet. The prices of long distance and international calls used to be prohibitive and it's likely that such overseas chavrusas were not so commonplace due to the cost factor.

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 11:47 am

zaq wrote:

1. There are no guarantees. Even gedolim have descendants otd, and every secular Israeli will tell you "my grandfather was a rabbi". The only thing you can do is be the best you can be and give your children a strong Jewish education. But be sincere and be a good person and don't look down on or make nasty comments about people who are less observant. Nothing turns a seeker or a child off so fast as hypocrisy and double standards.

2. It's nice to want to make a big impact and why not reach for the stars, but don't forget that the big shots aren't the whole story. It's all the plain poshut people going about their quiet lives just doing what they're supposed to do that make am yisrael what it is. If all you ever do is bring up your children to be good observant Jews, you're still a heroine, just not a famous one. Every child you bring up right, every act of chesed you do, every mitzvah you keep makes an impact.

Thanks, I really like what you said. I agree.

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 11:56 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I really get you. I always say that I have the same goals as my grandparents born at the turn of the 20th century: I want kids who are shomer Shabbos with a bren for Yiddishkeit. Very basic.
We had some post Holocaust years of plenty, we got the great gift of access to E"Y, all these Divine kisses to let us know Hashem's here and taking care of us and allowed the Holocaust to happen for good reasons we can't fathom now. But we are facing challenges. We are living in a superficial world, an openly immodest world, and we have to deal with technology. Leave aside the frum stuff - you can read all sorts of secular books on the challenge of technology (Virtually You, The Big Disconnect) I think I'm older than you with my babies being older than yours. But I see the kids these days and I salute the parents. There is a lot of good parenting, a lot of genuine effort being made, and I think you'll all see peiros. Find mentors. Make thoughtful decisions, ones you can live with.
And when I said v'ha'arev na this morning and said the words "v'tze'etza'ai amcha beis Yisroel" you were included too.

thank you.
Several of my great grandparents were quiet tzaddikim but only one child survived the war and he went off the derech.

We can't judge Holocaust survivors and I know later in life he was thrilled that he had frum grandchildren. But it's so fragile. Like you say, we can only do our best and daven.

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 12:00 pm

zaq wrote:

Because you're living in a different time and different circumstances. Your children are presumably going to religious schools, live in a heavily observant neighborhood, socialize with observant people, have parents who live a deeply observant life and don't have to choose between having food and keeping Shabbos.

Why shouldnt you expect better statistics? I say you absolutely should. But at the same time you have to understand that there are no guarantees. Each child is an individual and goes his own way. You do your best and leave the rest to the KBH.

I feel like there is more superficiality today. It's so easy to be frum... If there were challenges who would be falling off the wagon? Hopefully nobody. But there always were people who did.

The smartphone is a sign of superficiality. I like something on Twitter, there I've expressed myself publicly, I don't need to actually do anything.

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 12:15 pm

The superficiality comes from both sides.
Judging frumkeit by superficial things like numbers of chumrahs kept. Davening while thinking about the Superbowl. Looking up the nearest pizza shop on smartphone and then ordering mezonos pizza "so we don't have to bench!". Giving lip service to shmiras halashon (pun intended).

Maybe that's the core challenge of our generation.

zaq

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 1:19 pm

ectomorph wrote:

It's so easy to be frum... If there were challenges who would be falling off the wagon? Hopefully nobody

.

Al tiftechi peh lasatan. Would you really prefer a little persecution and a little struggle-to-survive to replace all that superficially in your life? And does it change things if those who are lost get lost due to persecution or due to plain laziness? Lost is lost.

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 1:21 pm

zaq wrote:

you're absolutely right. Hashem should protect us and give us revach and parnasa.

PinkFridge

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 1:38 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Bingo!
Though I don't know if we can point any one "the core". But if we can, this might be it.
This is galus Yavan, and as we know, Yavan was a profoundly material, superficial culture.

gold21

Thu, Feb 02 2017, 1:40 pm

pizza4 wrote:

Are smartphones the nisayon of this generation?

I don't think so.

I think materialism is. In our world, it is acceptable to be very frum and still very materialistic... Which is kind of contradictory.

It's like the hidden nisayon, something that is considered acceptable but really should not be accepted. Simplicity is "out", materialism is "in". Youre supposedly not frum enough if you have a smartphone, even though it has practical applications to your life... but it's somehow OK to obsess over your appearance, drop money you don't have on ridiculous things, and essentially worship materialism, which is utterly pointless.

Sorry if I sound like a Rebbetzin lol. Just responding to this thread.

jflower

Fri, Feb 03 2017, 8:36 am

"many became Christians or marranos during the inquisition"

Is it fair to mention marranos in the same breath as others who completely turned away from yiddishkeit? None of us could positively say how we would act ch"v if faced with the same situation. Marranos kept their religion in private as well as they could.

Eschaya, thanks for your wonderful post.

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